1940 staff vehicle - A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

In regard to the Morris-Commercial CD and CDF 6x4, my impression is that a lot, possibly most of these were lost in France; so many that they became rare - in the British army - after Dunkirk.


Yes one of the positive side effects of Dunkirk was virtually all the pre war stuff was lost -so everything the army had for the rest of the war was new or only a few years old .

 

Yes one of the positive side effects of Dunkirk was virtually all the pre war stuff was lost -so everything the army had for the rest of the war was new or only a few years old .

I don't think this was completely right. I believe the British Army was forced to take on a lot of second hand commercial vehicles, many of which were positively ancient.

They also had to purchase a load of USA vehicles that had been ordered by the French military (no longer needed) .

The British also missed an opportunity -as a result of the loss of 85,000 to 100,000 vehicles - to standardise their vehicles, like other nations had; but red-tape and trade concerns caused them to miss the chance.

No doubt they also had other priorities now that the UK was under attack from the air, and operation sealion was building up across the channel.


Simon

 

That there were recurrent plans to standardise is well documented. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for us vehicle enthusiasts), it was never quite the right time. In 1940-41, anything would do, by 1943, the pressure to supply vehicles for the forthcoming invasion was too great and by 1944 they were backpeddling on contracts as there were enough vehicles for the continuation of hostilities in the Far East.

If there was standardisation then it probably arrived post-war.

 

LOL anything but! I've read reminiscences of Matadors still being in service right up to the late 1950s in BAOR, alongside late-war trucks, and postwar...

What probably happened was that with succesive waves of cuts the Army SHRANK to the point at which there was enough of certain particular vehicle types to equip it! Then the rest were released or scrapped. But that's not quite the same as making a decision to actively pursue standardisation at that time!

It would be interesting to look at the history of something like the Landrover in postwar Army service... and match its various mileposts in terms of purchasing/delivery against how the overall need for them shrank to match! It simply became easier to purchase a single vehicle type across the services as the services' needs shrank down towards the government's ability to carry out a project like that.

Standardisation "by default"

 

You've got to wonder why in wartime we didn't pick the best vehicle in the class and get everyone capable to make it. ie Bedford QL as THE 3ton 4x4.
We did this with other products ie bren carriers and various aircraft.

 

LOL anything but! I've read reminiscences of Matadors still being in service right up to the late 1950s in BAOR, alongside late-war trucks, and postwar...

What probably happened was that with succesive waves of cuts the Army SHRANK to the point at which there was enough of certain particular vehicle types to equip it! Then the rest were released or scrapped. But that's not quite the same as making a decision to actively pursue standardisation at that time!

It would be interesting to look at the history of something like the Landrover in postwar Army service... and match its various mileposts in terms of purchasing/delivery against how the overall need for them shrank to match! It simply became easier to purchase a single vehicle type across the services as the services' needs shrank down towards the government's ability to carry out a project like that.

Standardisation "by default"

This is off the top of my head, but I seem to recall that quite a lot of Matadors were built post war when the planned CT artillery tractor ran into difficulty!

Chris

 

Chris, not "Matadors"; the design had morphed into the AEC "Militant" IIRC.

~3800 of the Militant Mk1 were built -

FV 11001 : Tractor 10 ton General Service Medium/Heavy Anti-Aircraft 6x4
FV 11002 : Tractor 10 ton General Service Medium/Heavy Anti-Aircraft 6x6
FV 11003 : Truck 10 ton General Service Crane Bridging 6x4 or 6x6
FV 11004 : Truck 10 ton General Service Tipper ( End Only ) 6x4
FV 11005 : Truck 10 ton General Service Tipper ( Three Way ) 6x4
FV 11006 : Truck 10 ton General Service Fuel Tanker 2500 Gallon 6x4
FV 11007 : Truck 10 ton General Service Cargo ( 14 ft ) 6x4
FV 11008 : Truck 10 ton General Service Cargo ( 18 ft ) 6x4
FV 11009 : Truck 10 ton General Service Fuel Tanker 2500 Gallon 6x4
FV 11010 : Tractor 10 ton General Service for Semi-Trailer 6x6
FV 11011 : Truck 10 ton General Service Crane Missile 6x6
FV 11012 : Truck 10 ton General Service Cargo Dropside 6x4
FV 11013 : Truck 10 ton General Service Crane General Purpose 6x4
FV 11014 : Truck 10 ton General Service Excavator 6x4 or 6x6
FV 11015 : Truck 10 ton General Service for 20 ton Trailer 6x6
FV 11016 : Truck 10 ton General Service Cargo ( 18 ft Dropside ) 6x6 Front hook 7 ton Winch
FV 11017 : Truck 10 ton General Service Self Propelled Launcher 6x4
FV 11021 : Truck 10 ton Tipping Platform, Self Loading, RE 6x6
FV 11022 : Truck 10 ton Heavy Duty ( RAF ) 6x6
FV 11031 : Tractor 10 ton General Service Light Anti-Aircraft 6x6

 

There were definetly Matadors built post war , the ridiculous no expense spared standardised Rolls Royce engined combat (CT) vehicle programme was begining to come off the rails and they were short of artillery tractors .From memory Matadors built as late as 1958.

 

There were definetly Matadors built post war , the ridiculous no expense spared standardised Rolls Royce engined combat (CT) vehicle programme was begining to come off the rails and they were short of artillery tractors .From memory Matadors built as late as 1958.

You are right. Steve Richards' book AEC Matador describes total post war production of 792, many from 1950 -54, partly due to problems with the Leyland Martian.

Andrew

 

I'm a baby boomer so my input is purely observational. I remember seeing Matador-y type trucks, QLs, RLs, a big ugly Commer job, an ambulance on a Thames (Ford) chassis, a colossal Leyland 6x4 which, I guess, was the Martian, Scammells, Thorneycroft Antars and something else along the lines of the QL/RL niggling at the back of my mind.

The earliest standard I saw were the MJ series and then only, I think, in two sizes -- 4x4 & 6x4. Then came the TM which, to a kerbside watcher, seemed to be the first attempt at true standardisation. Now the MAN series are coming on stream which seem to be the mutt's nuts and cover all types.

 

You are right. Steve Richards' book AEC Matador describes total post war production of 792, many from 1950 -54, partly due to problems with the Leyland Martian.

Interesting; that overlaps with the arrival of the Militant...and it first appeared as a gun tractor! Are these "military" Matadors to the same specs/equiment as the wartime ones....or were they the civilian Matadors that AEC started building again in 1948? Were they "true" matadors I.E. 4x4s, or the 6x6s?

There's also a funny in that AEC manufactured a 4x2 artic tractor postwar - also called the Matador! - which they sold in the civvie market alongside the "normal" 0853 Matador...!

 

In pics they look almost identical to the wartime ones. Probably just dusted off their old plans and spares stock

 

post WW2 the Post Office took delivery of a number of 4x4 Matador artic tractors.

http://www.britishtelephones.com/vehicles/tractorcabs/039.htm

TED

 

Interesting; that overlaps with the arrival of the Militant...and it first appeared as a gun tractor! Are these "military" Matadors to the same specs/equiment as the wartime ones....or were they the civilian Matadors that AEC started building again in 1948? Were they "true" matadors I.E. 4x4s, or the 6x6s?

There's also a funny in that AEC manufactured a 4x2 artic tractor postwar - also called the Matador! - which they sold in the civvie market alongside the "normal" 0853 Matador...!

This is not really my period but Steve Richards in his book is clearly talking about the military AEC O853 Matadors. I can certainly recommend the book, it has some great pictures.

Andrew

 

We're way off thread here now , but theres a bit here about the postwar Matadors and the Matador mk11 4x4 introduced in 1960! with the tin front cab.

Matador mk 11

 

Yep, have come across that before...only 43 ever built! A great sales success! Pity the poor bugger who wanted the manual...if he was trying to restore it! Getting the manual would be hard enough, but....!

 

Hi All, I'm new here but an old hand at collecting and restoring military vehicles. I have five wartime Humbers including a 1939 Super Snipe Heavy Utility 4X2 (yes it is heavy!) that was abandoned in France by the BEF and then used by the Kriegsmarine until 1944 when it was recaptured and issued to the French fire brigade. I bought it in central France in very dismantled state in October 09 and we had it up and running to go back to Dunkirk for the 70th last year. I'll put some pics up when I've figured out how.

 

Hi All, I'm new here but an old hand at collecting and restoring military vehicles. I have five wartime Humbers including a 1939 Super Snipe Heavy Utility 4X2 (yes it is heavy!) that was abandoned in France by the BEF and then used by the Kriegsmarine until 1944 when it was recaptured and issued to the French fire brigade. I bought it in central France in very dismantled state in October 09 and we had it up and running to go back to Dunkirk for the 70th last year. I'll put some pics up when I've figured out how.

Welcome to the forum Alex. I look forward to seeing the pictures. I am not sure if this is the right way to do it but:

I click the paperclip at the top of a new message, browse on my pc to find the picture, click upload to bring it into the website then right click the uploaded file to open it, copy the opened file and paste it into the text I am writing. This leaves an image in the text and a thumbnail at the bottom of the text. Others seem to prefer uploading their files onto an image site and pasting a link to that into the text.

Andrew

 

What a great find Alex, is this your Humber in Dunkirk (Malo) 2010?
Craig
PS- This is how I post photos-(I' sure there are detailed instructions on this forum but like all blokes not read em and bet everybodys fudged through in their own way)
In 'quick reply' at bottom of page Click on
1.Go Advanced
2.Manage Attachments ( near bottom of page)
3.Browse
4.Find pic in your files and open it
5.Upload
6.Close the Window
This puts the small (click to enlarge) pic at bottom of post like this;-

 

Hi All,

Thanks Andrew, I'll give it a try, and yes Craig that's my Humber back in 2010 and I'm the grumpy bugger in the Tam with my back to the camera. The car is a bit more finished inside now and also it has it's original census number back on it now as the really nice helpfull man who I bought it from, found an old pic of it in fire brigade red taken back in the 1970's that is clear enough to show the original number under the red paint on the bonnet.

It's number was M4110896. Also when we stripped the paint off the doors and tailgate we found the marking C 24 on the original British army green and under the Km dark blue paint.

I live in hope the that one day we might know who she was with in thos dark days back in 1939-40....maybe we'll find a picture...I hope!

I'll try and get some pictures of it posted in the next day or two.

All the best, Alex.