2 Suffolks Burma

Hi Murdo

Patrols were of two types; intelligence gathering patrols who sought to observe and get back with the information and 'Fighting patrols' which sought to ambush or come into conflict with the enemy and destroy them. The second often had more men.

On MIDs: They were given out sparingly as were gallantry medals. They were either for gallantry (but not enough to warrant a medal) or for long and meritorious service in a non-combat function. To be honest we don't know enough about the patrol you mention to have any view on whether it involved gallantry or outstanding leadership and there were a number of patrols being sent out most days. One could argue that was the 'day job' for an infantry subaltern and there were lots of them doing it.

Junior officers in this campaign generally led platoons and a platoon would have had 30-ish men so 21 men on a patrol seems to have been a large number (compared to many patrols) but still well within the remit of a junior officer.

On the comment about the Japanese force - I took it to mean the Japanese set out with 150 men but only 20 were now effective. Of the balance, 80 casualties (so wounded or sick) were gathered at the spot and guarded/protected by a small force with a machine gun.

Hope this helps.

I have sent a long time trying to put together an account of the fighting around Mound and Pimple and whilst a lot is clear (the Suffolks' War Diaries are very detailed) there are a number of bits which are unclear or subject to conjecture. Without seeing the account your father recorded and comparing that to the various official sources it is hard to link the two....for instance I can't recall mention of a Mt Chibin anywhere.

 

On the War Diaries - I copied them at Kew in 2014. Once the lockdown is lifted you could either go there yourself and view/copy them or get someone to copy them for you which given your location makes more sense. Getting the National Archives to do it is very expensive by comparison to the service provided by some on this site.

I have sent you by email the pages from the Suffolk's History mentioned above for the fighting at Imphal until mid-April. The book is OK but isn't very detailed, it misses out large chunks of the action and is written by someone who was not in the campaign and that shows in places. Nevertheless it has some interesting additional information. The other place to look would be the documents held by the Suffolks' Museum which are now held in the Suffolk Record Office I believe.

 

Hi and what a comprehensive reply and most certainly gallantry wasn't easily recognised in those days and which annoys me even more knowing that today, every nation dishes out all sorts of medals for little! This is how I typed what my father said in his tape:
"A few days later, and by the way, I ask you if you’re firing at the enemy, can you be sure you’ve killed someone, in case they killed you. Can you be sure even if you saw them falling? Well, two days later I had to be sure because a Jap, only about the width of the room, ten yards away perhaps, came at me so I had to be sure of getting him. And to this day, I can still see the surprise and agonised look on his face. He was ahead of others but my men accounted for them, three of them, afterwards. This incident occurred near hill 4057 from which we’d seen the attack on Mount Chibin??"
I added the question marks as I thought he said Chibin and so here is the part which he refers to;
"Japs got within about ten miles of Imphal, with its Headquarters, vital supply dumps and airfields. And our division guarded it to the North and the East. Now one hill dominated the northern part and it was called Nungshigun. Not actually a hill but a four mile long ridge, several peaks rising to thirty-seven hundred. Remember the base of that peak would be about 2,600 above sea level. So up to thirty-seven hundred and very steep near the summit. The Japs took it but couldn’t be allowed to stay on it and, after a couple of failed attempts, a full scale attack was planned. The Suffolks and I were about 4 miles away across the paddy fields and we heard, we didn’t see, we heard an awful lot. First the Vengeance dive-bombers came along, and then machine-gunning, Hurri-bombers and then the mass artillery of 5th Indian Division all softened the Japs up. Then our Dogras, climbing up behind tanks, although with the steepness, the tanks could only go in low gear at 1mile per hour. But the hill was finally cleared although every tank commander, for they had to observe from their turrets, every tank commander and infantry officer was either killed or wounded in the taking of the hill. Overwhelming strength and firepower. But much earlier, the Japanese Chief-of-Staff decided no tank could climb such hills so they hadn’t taken any anti-tank guns."

 

HI and I made up quickly this wee film as the only way I can add audio and you can listen for yourself at the very end. Not good quality but the best I can do and hopefully gets through and spreads some light on events....oh dear, if I had only asked him when he was still alive!!!

 

Morning and I have re-read what I typed from my father's tapes and instead of Mount Chibin which I thought I heard, he was referring to the hurri-bombers etc and their attach on Nungshigun!!!!
As to being or not being MID I suppose that I was judging that by today's standards of gallantry compared to those days and not just because it was my father. When the French Army were in Desert Storm, the regiment I later joined were allocated a certain number of medals and varying in "value".... a friend of mine who was a staff-sergeant at the time told me that he and his company commander spent two full days and night "making up citations" otherwise that allocation would have been given out elsewhere. A sign of the times I'm afraid!!!!!

 

Hi and do we know at all what living conditions 2 Suffolk had during this time adn perhaps what their meals were? I'd be interested to know as my father never mentioned anything of that at all but probably wasn't much. How could they be 100% and ready to fight under such permanent strain?

 

Hi Murdo

Yes, Nunshigum was just across the valley from the Suffolks and is mentioned in their War Diary. The Dogras that captured it were from the same Brigade. I climbed up it in 2014 following the route the tanks took. Will listen to the MP4 - thanks!

 

Well done and too late for me perhaps but I would have liked to have visited the area once in my life. It certainly wasn't easy and why I honestly believe they all deserved more than they received! Cheers for now, Murdo

 

Hi Tony and reading again my father's manuscript, when he joined the Suffolks in October 1943, he joined B Company but I suppose officers were switched around fairly often. He didn't mention the company again except that the CO was very English and used a hunting horn to call in his platoon leaders!!! Were there no monthly officers lists or something similar showing each company's strength for example? Cheers for now, Murdo

 

Hi there Tony (

Hope you’re well and am hoping you are still active on here. Having only just started to research official records regarding 2nd Battalion Suffolk Regiment, I was thrilled to come across these discussion threads; I can see there is already some considerable experience in searching through official war diary records.

I’m looking for any advice and recommendations you may be able to give in how best to start combing through the records for any specific mentions of my late Grandfather Douglas Cotterell, who I believe was in C company of 2nd Battalion. A number of years ago, I noted down a number of details and stories he shared from his experience in Burma

I know he was part of the campaign in Imphal and Arakan, and am now hoping to build a more complete picture of his part in that conflict, combining the few notes I scribbled down with official records

I believe he started as a private and went on to either Lance Corporal or Corporal, in charge of a bren gun squad.

Any advice you can share would be greatly appreciated before I start my research

many thanks

Jamie

 

Jamie,

Skoyen aka Tony is still visiting here. If you hover over his name on the avatar it will shown when.

Always a good move to add your grandfather's full name, DoB and service number. It is amazing how many people come here when those details appear via a search engine.

It might be best to add a thread on him, within the forum: Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy In part as old threads appear to get little traction.

If you search here, using "2 suffolks" + "ww2talk.com" there are two other probably relevant threads. Plus this: 5438517 Lance Serjeant Ernest Daniel EDLIN, BEM, 2nd Bn. Suffolk Regiment: 25/01/1944 not found in the search as 2nd is used.

 

Hi Jamie

Yes, I am still lurking around here (well posting as well!). Some thoughts on furthering your research:

1. Order your relatives records from the MOD. There is a wait of about 12 months but it is critical for your research to know when and where he was. This is especially so for a normal soldier as against an officer as they get very few mentions in other documents such as the war diaries.

2. Search online. Post his full details as David says in the post above this. There may be something to be found online by other researchers who access the family history sites etc. Tell us as much as you know already.

3. Read around on the Suffolks in Burma generally. There are a couple of good books mentioned already in this thread - a lot of it is still on paper rather than online. You can also get the War Diaries which have more detail.

4. Ask around in the extended family for information, stories, medals, photos, documents etc etc. Sometimes a cousin has stuff in their attic that is useful!!

5. There are a couple of good Facebook sites- one for the Suffolk Regiment which has knowledgable Suffolks people on it but isn't very active and WWII Burma Research Group which is very active and a has lots of general stuff on the Campaign and again some knowledgeable people on it.

Good luck with your research
Tony

PS Write it all down (paper as well as computer) and pass copies around the family so it is kept for the future.

 

Hi Raj and did you ever find the graves of those killed in April 1944 and particularly Tod from Edinburgh?

 

God morning and would you happen to have a copy of the map the 2 Suffolks were using in April 1944 with a reference 83L N/W 1/2 "? I would be extremely grateful if you have (or anyone else for that matter)!

 

Hi

Raj and the team found the area where they think the casualties were buried after the fighting but no further bodies.

 

I have photos of a few maps of the area but it would help to know the exact area or feature you are interested in and I will look through my files.

 

The area mentioned was the Mound, Point 4057, near Imphal of course...fingers crossed

 

Morning Skoyen and the reference to the map I would love to see is mentioned at the top of this attachement. It would be brilliant if you have it as I have tried the British Library who have all of the series EXCEPT this one! Have a nice day

 

Marie at the moment Raj is here with me in the UK for a remembrance service tomorrow. He has maps etc on his laptop and will contact you when he returns to Imphal.
Lionboxer

 

Good evening Lionboxer and great news. I hope that he has a wonderful visit and a safe return. I have attached a map which I received from the British Library of the Imphal area and which shows in the bottom left the collection of maps for that area. The one which I am really interested in is one click to the right of this one i.e. 83L N/W and was being used by 2 Suffolks and I suppose others in that area. Have a nice evening