4 Recce War Diary & Map

Discussion in 'Recce' started by Smudger Jnr, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Tim,
    I bought the book last Christmas and it is excellent if you have a date or dates as each chapter has the dates printed on the top of the page making references a lot easier.

    As far as I am aware it is the only book printed on the 4th Division available in print.

    At least now I have learned a lot of places that my fathers 'B' Squadron visited in Italy and Greece with the 4th Recce Regt. All due to the book and the War Diaries that Robert very kindly supplied.:)

    Regards
    Tom
     
  2. Nick Preston

    Nick Preston Junior Member

    Thank you to you all for your efforts. Colonel Preston was very well respected by my grandfather during their time together in 4 Recce.

    I have found out the following:

    Name: Patrick Guy Carbery Preston
    Born 1903 India
    Died: Alderney CI 1978

    After 4 Recce took over 28th Infantry Brigade (2 batt. Somerset LI, Kings Regiment 2 Batt; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 1 Batt; Hampshire Regiment 2/4) Along with 4 Recce I think they headed for Greece in the autumn of 1944 - hereafter the trail goes cold. 4 Recce I think went too but was disbanded/amalgamated afterwards.

    On a completely separate note found a great book amongst my grandfather's things - have you chaps heard of it - 'The Fourth Division 1939 - 1945' published by Newman Neame by Hugh Williamson in 19561 - fascinating read...

    Spero

    Funnily enough, I'm trying to find out some more snippets of info about my Grandfather during his time during WW2 for some homework my lad is doing. I'm actually on my way to chat to my Dad about it now.

    If you haven't already guessed/assumed, Brigadier PGC Preston was my grandfather, but I was only young when he died and I haven't any first hand accounts I can pass on.

    I'm going now to scan some photos of him taken during the war, along with getting some photos of his medals etc.

    What I do know is that he mentioned the German escort on Crete to my Dad, so that bit is accurate as far as I know.
    I'm also pretty sure he accepted the German surrender on Crete in the abscence of his CO.

    If you'd like me to try and find anything out I can always ask my old man. I'm not promising mind you, as I understand it PGC didn't speak too much about his experiences.

    B)
     
  3. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Nick,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Any information you have would be gladly accepted by our Recce oriented members.

    I know what you mean about not speaking much about experiences, my father was no exception and only spoke a little to me later on in life.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  4. Nick Preston

    Nick Preston Junior Member

    After 4 Recce took over 28th Infantry Brigade (2 batt. Somerset LI, Kings Regiment 2 Batt; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 1 Batt; Hampshire Regiment 2/4) Along with 4 Recce I think they headed for Greece in the autumn of 1944 - hereafter the trail goes cold.

    Spoke to my Dad, he's pretty certain they ended up in North Africa following Crete. Apparently PGC was hospitalised (not a wound afaik) and ended up coming home soon after.

    I've some pictures that we think are around the right time, so I'll sort those and post them up shortly.
     
  5. Nick Preston

    Nick Preston Junior Member

    Heh, all things considered, it seems you guys probably know more about my Grandad than me or my Pops do.
    I've left my Dad a link to this thread and he's going to have a thorough read of the reports you posted to see if he can add anything further.
    He has confirmed that the Recce Reports aren't PGC's own handwriting though :rolleyes:

    Here are some photos I've just taken/scanned. I'm not sure they'll be any more than a curiosity to you guys, but you never know.

    Marathon Excursion
    A excursion some time after Crete. Definite celebration and frivolity.
    PGC is the one dancing in the second picture.
    It's in a teeny photo album, maybe 3" x 2"

    Vehicle Badges
    Some heavy duty vehicle badges from the Recce Corps and the Royal Lincolnshire.

    Back of his Medals
    Two as Brigadier surrounding one awarded as Lt Col in the Recce Corps.
    I have a complete set of the medals, but I've err....misplaced the picture for now.

    Greek Cross (?)
    We know that this medal was the one linked to the events on Crete.

    Unknown Location
    We're having trouble with this set. Definitely 4th Inf but I only know that from the uniforms in the pics.
    There was a suspicion it might be around Cassino, but the shorts and some Greek engraving on a rock 'ONXY' (?) (misplaced that picture as well:unsure:) is suggesting it's Crete/Greece. Any suggestions welcome :D.
    There's some info on the back of one photo, but I didn't have time to note it properly so I might have remembered it a bit wrong:

    J. MacRae
    HQ Div 13 28 Inf


    1961
    Apparently, he was invited 'back' in 1961, although my Dad is unsure as to exactly where. He thought it was Cassino, although the photo here has what appears to be a Greek stamp on the back.
    The regiment on Parade is also confusing us a little, so any help at all with identifying that event would be much appreciated.

    DSO
    His DSO certificate. I found his rank interesting on this
    Major (temporary Lieutenant-Colonel) (acting Brigadier)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Nick,

    I see that the campaign medals have the recipients details etched / stamped on the rear.

    This is the first time that I have seen this. I wonder if this was the norm for officers medals?
    I was always under the impression campaign medals were unmarked.

    Very nice photographs.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    1961
    Apparently, he was invited 'back' in 1961, although my Dad is unsure as to exactly where. He thought it was Cassino, although the photo here has what appears to be a Greek stamp on the back.
    The regiment on Parade is also confusing us a little, so any help at all with identifying that event would be much appreciated.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/italy/21377d1255037708t-4-recce-war-diary-map-1961-unknown-jpg

    They are wearing the cap badge of the Highland Brigade, there was a time post-war when Regiments didn't wear their own badge but that of their Brigade.
    Highland Brigade 1958-69 WM Cap Badge British Army Military Cap Badges and Regimental Insignia

    I'm not too good on Scottish Regiments.
    I think they are Black Watch, it's not Cassino that for sure.
    Pic of Black Watch in Cyprus in 1959 here in same uniform.
    THE BLACK WATCH (RHR) IN CYPRUS (1958-1961)
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Nick,

    I see that the campaign medals have the recipients details etched / stamped on the rear.

    This is the first time that I have seen this. I wonder if this was the norm for officers medals?
    I was always under the impression campaign medals were unmarked.

    Very nice photographs.

    Regards
    Tom

    Tom,

    I think Paul Reed was saying that no WW2 medals were engraved although several companies offered to do them for free after the war. (I asked about it last year I think).

    The same still applies today to a degree my Nato Medals are blank but my Telic medal has name, rank and number on it.

    Nick,

    I have come across the rank thing before when researching VC citations. It appears to be quite common amongst officers in the British Army at that time.

    Andy
     
  9. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Andy,

    Thanks for that information, it does make it more personal than anonymous, as most remained.

    My LSGC has details stamped on outside edge, makes it special to me.:D

    Regards
    Tom
     
  10. Nick Preston

    Nick Preston Junior Member

    More haste, less speed as they say :rolleyes:

    Turns out that the unknown location is actually Mt Olympus....it's written on the envelope in which the photos are contained. Silly me.

    Speaking to my Mum about the one and only tale my Granny used to recite....how PGC was making his way up a ditch at Cassino and came face to face with four German soldiers. As he was wearing his usual leather tunic/bodywarmer thingy they failed to spot his uniform and went on their merry way.
    "Oh yes" says me mother...."It's upstairs"

    Tom: If at all possible, I'd be really interested to know if there is any validation of that in the diary/reports.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Nick,
    For some reason I did not see your post, but I will look through the diaries for you.

    Again nice photographs that you posted. Getting hold of his jacket must have sent your heart beat up a little :D. Lucky you.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  12. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Nick,

    I could find no reference to the incident that you mentioned.:(

    However I have resized all of May 1944 War Diary photos to attach here for all those interested.:D

    Hope you enjoy reading them.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Nick Preston

    Nick Preston Junior Member

    Nick,

    I could find no reference to the incident that you mentioned.:(

    However I have resized all of May 1944 War Diary photos to attach here for all those interested.:D

    Hope you enjoy reading them.

    Tom, I can't thank you enough for looking, and for the diaries.

    Apparently I've got my sequencing wrong and PGC was in North Africa prior to the Dunkirk landings (hope I've got it right this time!)

    Some new info has come to light from the National Archives though.
    We always thought his DSO resulted from the efforts in Cassino, however it seems it was earned for 'co-ordination and planning' and 'being continually forward in areas subjected to heavy mortar and small arms fire' during the breakout from Ronco Bridgehead and the subsequent capture of the town of Forli on 8th November 1944.

    I think we've learned more in the last few weeks than in the rest of of the last 60+ years that my Dad has been wondering, so a big thank you to everyone for that :D
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From Times
     

    Attached Files:

  15. SPERO56

    SPERO56 Member

    Hi Nick

    Another 4 Recce follower here. I have been researching my late grandfather's time (Lt. Col Bill Purvis) with 4 Recce and your grandfather's name came up all the time. On closer inspection of some of his things I found out he too was in North Africa with your grandfather, then Italy but they parted company after Cassino. I have a letter from your grandfather to my grandfather wishing him well and apologising for not saying goodbye personally to all of the regiment officers and men. I think your grandfather had been wounded.

    I was living in Italy for the past year but now have upped sticks and am living in California. I will look out the letters for you when I can. I also have a photo of the two together.
     
  16. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Hi Nick

    Another 4 Recce follower here. I have been researching my late grandfather's time (Lt. Col Bill Purvis) with 4 Recce and your grandfather's name came up all the time. On closer inspection of some of his things I found out he too was in North Africa with your grandfather, then Italy but they parted company after Cassino. I have a letter from your grandfather to my grandfather wishing him well and apologising for not saying goodbye personally to all of the regiment officers and men. I think your grandfather had been wounded.

    I was living in Italy for the past year but now have upped sticks and am living in California. I will look out the letters for you when I can. I also have a photo of the two together.

    Tim,
    It would be wonderful to see the photograph of the two together. Icing on the cake for the thread!
    It is refreshing to know that through the forum we can make connections with the past.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  17. SPERO56

    SPERO56 Member

    Tom

    Absolutely. Will also try and get the letter from Brigadier Preston to my grandfather up on the site as well. Just waiting for my things to arrive in the US from Italy. So will be a couple more weeks yet.

    It's a really small world - you may recall a few months back I was trying to track down some details about Brigadier Preston and to no real avail. This web site has been tremendous in it's expertise and knowledge of its posters and also by bringing people together with a common interest or goal.
     
  18. SPERO56

    SPERO56 Member

    Nick

    If you go to a post I made in September on this forum - entitled 4 Recce & RWK's - you'll find an image which I think is my grandfather with your father. I am looking out some others that I may have as well together with letters from your grandfather to mine. Spero
     
  19. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Tom, I have just obtained This Band of Brothers by Jeremy Taylor. This is from the appendix.


    THE 4TH RECONNAISSANCE REGIMENT



    The Regiment was formed in January, 1941, mainly from the Anti-Tank Companies of the 10th, 11th and 12th Infantry Brigades. The Regiment fought in the break-through to Tunis, and chased the enemy round Cap Bon. The 4th fought from March to November, 1944, in Italy, and was then sent to help in dealing with the civil disturbances in Greece.

    Commanding Officers of the Regiment were:

    Lt-Col. S. E. F. Moran, Lt-Col. P. G. C. Preston, D.S.O., Lt-Col. A. C. S. Delmege, M.C.

    Other Ranks of the Regiment gained the following Decorations and Awards:-

    Cpl G. Ball, M.I.D.
    Tpr H. Bartley, M.M.
    Sgt L. Beaumont, M.I.D.
    Cpl J. H. Bennet, M.M.
    Sgt D. F. Brought, M.M.
    WO 11 W. V. Brown, M.I.D.
    Tpr W. Coates, M.I.D.
    Sgt J. Colvelle, M.M.
    Sgt J. P. Copling, M.M.
    WO 11 E. Couper, M.I.D.
    Cpl W. M. Davidson, M.I.D.
    WO 11 K. L G. Dogett, M.I.D.
    Sgt T. Drummond, M.I.D.
    Sgt A. E. Duckett, M.M.
    Sgt W. Flanagan, M.I.D.
    Tpr F. L. C. Foreman, M.I.D.
    C.S.M. MeL. Forsythe, M.M.
    Tpr J. Fraiser, M.M.
    C.S.M. A. B. Franks, M.I.D.
    Tpr C. Georgeson, M.I.D.
    Cpl F. Griffiths, M.I.D.
    Sgt R Halls, M.I.D.
    L/C D. Harmer, M.I.D.
    Tpr E. Harris, M.M.
    Sgt A. Harvey, M.I.D.
    Sgt G. Hawkins, M.I.D.
    Cpl T. Hildrew, M.I.D.
    Tpr K. J. Jew, M.M.
    Sgt A. E. John, M.M.
    Sgt J. Kelly, M.I.D.
    Sgt W. Kerr, M.M.
    Tpr J. King, M.I.D.
    Tpr D. Kingsley, M.I.D.
    Sgt J. Langer, M.I.D.
    L/C E. N. Lamer, M.M.
    Sgt J. Lawson, M.M.
    Sgt J. Marsh, M.I.D.
    Sgt F. Mason, M.I.D.
    Cpl R McGaffin, M.I.D.
    Sgt G. Mitchell, M.I.D.
    Sgt G. Murray, M.LD.
    Cpl W. G. Nutter, M.I.D.
    C.Q.M.S. T. H. Parish, M.I.D.
    Tpr G. Pearce, M.I.D.
    Tpr L. A. Portfleet, M.I.D.
    Tpr T. Renwick, M.I.D.
    Tpr G. Robson, M.M.
    Tpr J. F. Salmon, M.I.D.
    Tpr E. W. Shepherd, M.M.
    RS.M. T. P. Simonds, M.I.D.
    Cpl P. J. Skinner, M.M.
    Sgt D. E. Smith, M.M.
    WO 11 F. W. Smith, M.B.E. and M.I.D.
    Tpr S. J. Smith, M.I.D.
    C.S.M. C. S. Steadman, M.M.
    Sgt G. T. P. Strong, M.M.
    Tpr W. J. Thomas, M.I.D.
    Tpr C. E. Thraxton, M.I.D.
    Tpr W. Turton M.I.D.
    S.Q.M.S. L. Walker, M.I.D.
    Tpr T. H. Webb, M.I.D.
    Cpl F. G. Williams, M.I.D.
    WO 1 H. Williams, M.I.D.

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  20. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    Hi Paul,
    That's a very humbling list of very brave men.
    Tom.
     

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