41 marked Bren carrier restoration

Discussion in 'Recce' started by Ben H, Sep 11, 2010.

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  1. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Hi

    I'm new to the forum and i'm looking for a little help.

    I'm about to begin the restoration of a Bren carrier. before it went to get sand blasted i took some photos of the markings left on the lower hull, it looks to me like a 41. There is a little blue paint left on the lower section and it appears that the 41 was painted black first then over painted with white. It also looks like the 41 is a different style to the one i've seen before (without the taller vertical leg) but it may just have been worn away.

    I understand that there would have been another unit marking but that isn't clear anymore i think there may be photos from a few years ago that still show the faint outline. I'm told it looked like an 8 on it's side or perhaps a cat !!

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, is there any information on when the 41 was used, does the black 41 mean anything?? can i narrow down who used 41 marked carriers and when?

    Thanks for your time, I'd like to find out as much as i can about how the carriers were used in a recce role.

    Ben
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  3. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi Ben and welcome to the forum.
    You have found a great place to help with your research. There are Military Vehicle and Recce experts here (and I am neither of those!) who will be only too happy to help you. Before anyone else asks....have you any other photos of your carrier you can post?

    Mike
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ben,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    The 41 indicates that it is a Reconnaissance Corps Carrier.

    There were two forms of marking.
    The standard tactical marking was white numbers on a square halved green over blue.

    A variation was that of the 43rd (Wessex) Recce. which was black numbers over a square divided diagonally, yellow over green.

    I wish you well with the restoration work and please post photographs of your progress.


    Regards
    Tom
     
  5. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    Hello Ben,
    Welcome to the forum. Good luck with the project and please keep us updated on the progress.
    Best regards,
    Tom.
     
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    welcome to the forum
    please keep us updated with your progress
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Good luck Ben

    The pic below might be of some help.

    It's of me & my Bren Gun Carrier when we were acting as Recce Rgt for 56 Div.

    Ron
     

    Attached Files:

    Medwyn Edwards likes this.
  8. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Thanks for the help so far, I'm happy to post pictures but at the moment it's stripped into lots of parts for restoration. i'll post some as it goes back together (and looks more like a carrier)

    When was the 41 first used?

    Ben
     
  9. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Ron

    That is an interesting picture,thanks for posting it. mine has the 41 on the lower front hull right side (left as you look from the front) was there much variation in the position or style of the marking?

    Ben
     
  10. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ben,

    There is a photograph of three Recce Carriers in Tunisia.

    The 41 is situated on the left rear guard )only the rear end in photo.
    Safe to assume the front 41 was also on the left fender.

    Pictures I have seen show them both on left and right hand sides, so perhaps it was down to each Division where they were positioned.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  11. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ben

    If you look carefully you can see the Black Cat of 56 Div on the right hand side.

    As far as "variation of position" is concerned, little did I know 65 years ago that someone would ask me that very question and so I have to admit that, sorry mate, I can't bloody remember :(

    However, knowing the Army, as I do, I'm certain that there would have been strict orders regarding where the Tac & Div signs had to be displayed and I seem to remember that the Div signs were always on the right mudguard.

    Having just said that and knowing this forum, as I do, it's pretty certain that someone will pop up and say "Sorry Ron, you've got it completely wrong !"

    Please let us see your work in progress and well done on the concept of your project.

    Ron
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  13. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  14. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    Ben

    If you look carefully you can see the Black Cat of 56 Div on the right hand side.


    However, knowing the Army, as I do, I'm certain that there would have been strict orders regarding where the Tac & Div signs had to be displayed and I seem to remember that the Div signs were always on the right mudguard.

    Ron


    Ron; having read your post (we have spoken a few times via PM) I thought I should share my own grandfathers photograph (its been on ww2talk for a while on my control pannel) of exactly what you are talking about. Please note my grandfather is the sergeant (not the guy with the massive trousers). This was taken, either in Trieste, or just prior to forcing the argenta gap.

    Its got nothing to do with the thread mind you, but Brens run in the family. Note the Black cat mixed with the guards motif.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/image.php?u=11443&dateline=1235389206&type=profile
     
  15. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Blimey !

    I've actually got it right for once :)

    Thanks for that Phaethon !

    Ron
     
  16. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Came across this one
    Rob

    5th Cdn Amd Div
    [​IMG] 1 Field Squadron, Royal Cdn Engineers
     
  17. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Welcome to the forum. I see you have a lot of answers already.

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  18. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Again, thanks to you all.

    I had assumed that 41 was recce only (with the blueand green background) i see the canadian image shown is blue only could there be anymore?

    All this information helps but i can see that i have opened a can of worms that i may never get an answer for.

    Ron was the equipment or storage fit different to a recce carrier, i see the storage box has been moved forward to the front armour. I guess this gives you more space inside?

    Cheers

    Ben
     
  19. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ben

    The carrier in the photo was a replacement for our Honey tank and served the same purpose of a chariot for the SSM. As far as I can remember, one day we had the Stuart, the next day we were issued with the carrier and, as you surmised, we had complete clear space in the body.

    I can't remember where the MGs were fixed, one of the perils of getting past one's sell by date :)

    Ron
     
  20. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ben

    Ever since I first responded to this thread I have been breaking my head trying to remember when we swapped our honey for the Bren Gun Carrier.

    To counteract my poor memory I do have access to my own & the 4th QOH Rgtl Diaries from where I got this, relevant part marked in BLUE:

    Rgtl Diary:
    28/7/1945 Sqns employed in recces of Regtl area, finding several hundreds of derelict enemy vehicles.
    29/7/1945 On dissolution of the 8th Army, Regt became part of British Troops, Austria.
    31/7/1945 A special message was received from the Army Commander on the occasion of the dissolution of 8th Army.
    Summary:- On the Regt ceasing to be under command 78 Div on July 8th all guard duties ceased. Immediately on coming under command 6th Armd Div the Regt was extremely busy refitting with ACs instead of Kangaroos, all of which were handed in before leaving 78 Div. Apart from refitting, all Tank and AC crews were busy learning to drive and master the maintenance problems of the new equipment. This was completed by July 22nd.On arriving in Styria, the Regt was immediately busy providing check posts on the northern border of Styria, sending out patrols to locate dumps of Wehrmacht equipment and to check civilian identities.
    War Diaries For 4th (Queen's Own) Hussars

    CO: Lt Col AM Barne
    1/10/1945 Major JJ O’Brien left to go on a course in UK, also 14 days leave. Warning order received that the Regt will move to TRIESTE and become Recce Regt in 56th (Lon) Div in lieu of 44th Recce Regt. Capt A Smith rejoined the Regt from 26th Armd Bde.
    2/10/1945

    My own Diary summary follows below.
    Apr’45 Comacchio, Traversare, Ferrara, Lugo, Santerno, Reno.

    May’45 Venice, Ferndorf,(Austria) (Set up a POW camp for SS Cavalry Division), Lienz, Spittal Paternion, Grafenstein, Trieben,Villach,

    Jul’ 45 Velden, Klagenfurt,Salsburg,

    Aug’45 Munich, Ulm in Germany. (Running staging camp for troops going home on leave (LIAP)

    Oct ’45 Peacekeeping between Italians & Yugoslavs, Trieste, October 1945 to January 1947


    What has become ever-clearer to me is that whilst in combat we only used the honey and it was not until we moved to Monfalcone, outside Trieste, that we were issued with the carrier as the SSM's runabout. That's why I couldn't remember where the MGs were, there probably weren't any :)

    Peacekeeping in Trieste was strictly confined to helping the local police and they were confined to using wooden batons.

    Ron
     

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