4th Coldstream Guards, 6th Guards Tank Brigade Picture

Following on from the 3 Div pic thread I have had this one too which I think is a rather good shot.

I may be stating the obvious but I would say its in Holland during Market Garden.



What do you think?

 

Nice one Owen...Title Changed to suit picture

It's a shame no one can ID the Airborne unit....That would help to pinpoint where it was taken.

Watch out for the next one

 

Was it normal for Churchill tank units to carry bits of tracks for a Sherman tank?

 

Wonderfull these pictures.

My father was liberated by men of the 17th AB "tansported" by tanks of this armoured brigade on March 28th or 29th.
He was in a small camp for forcerd labourers in Haltern.

Thank you very much.

 

According to the history of 6 Gds Tk Bde, 6 Gds Armd Bde Gp was formed to capture Munster after Op VARSITY had exposed the weakness of the German defences:

4 Coldm Gds
3 Bn 513 PIR, 17 US Abn Div

3 SG
2 Bn 513 PIR, 17 US Abn Div

3 Recce Regt

6 Fd regt RA
77 Med Regt RA
2x Btys 63 A/Tk Regt RA

 

Was it normal for Churchill tank units to carry bits of tracks for a Sherman tank?

Hi CC,

For some unexpicable reason, the lessons learned by the two Churcgill Tank Brigades that fought in the Meditterranean Theatre were ignored by the powers that be in the UK, the foolishness of welding track plates on to turrets being one of them.

When two tanks are within killing rage of each other the advantage lay with the one which could both lay on the the opponent and get off shots the faster - hence the reason why the Churchill invarianly got the better of both the Tiger and Panther.

Following the order/suggestion to weld track plates on to Churchills, while OK to do so on hulls, tests showed when affixed to turrets the speed of traverse was slowed significantly. A joint report from both Brigade Commanders advised London of the results, coupled with the statement that their Churchill units had been forbidden to weld anything on to turret walls.

Also ignored was 25th Tank Brigade's data of the capability of 6 pdr guns to deal with Tigers effectively at not insignificant ranges. See:
http://northirishhorse.net/documents/25thTB-Tiger.html

Perhaps the most stupid decision was to replace 6 pdr guns with 75mm ones on Marks that saw service in NWE. The delivery of Mark VIIs to units in Italy to replace Mark IIIs and IVs quickly came to an end.

 

Drew5233It's a shame no one can ID the Airborne unit....That would help to pinpoint where it was taken.


The photo was taken in the village of Appelhaussen a few miles from Munster (final target) on 1st or 2nd April 1945. Typical of German towns of the time in northern Germany was the embelishment of the line of the first floor level with a stone cornis.

Fighting at this time must have become fairly intensive as the Churchill "Bandit" is followed in close order by a 17pdr SPG M10, which often was a sign of possible enemy armour activity.

As already confirmed above, the Us troops are 3btn 513 RGT 17th Airborne div. Note the soldier in the centre has what appears to be a USA flag normally attched to windsceens on his right arm.

The Scots guards carried the 2nd bat. on the same mission.

The Grenadier Guards carried troops of British 6th airborne into Klosfeld. there is newsreel film of Genadier Guard Churchills and 6th airborne troops suppressing enemy in the outskirts of Klosfeld and forms part of one of the later "World at War" series documentaries from 1973.

Steve

 

Gerry Chester
tests showed when affixed to turrets the speed of traverse was slowed significantly. A joint report from both Brigade Commanders advised London of the results, coupled with the statement that their Churchill units had been forbidden to weld anything on to turret walls.


Hi Gerry,

Absolutely agree that the track link thing was fairly pointless.

It has been said that to an extent C in C NWE was willing to turn a blind eye to this practice, however unsound it was, as it seemed to improve morale.

The real problem for traverse speed was that the extra weight was unbalancing the turret. an equal weight would have to be fitted to the rear of the turret and that would beyond the scope of in the field modification. The Mk7 turret was significantly heavier but retained a similar capacity traverse drive motor. The Mk7 turret was sufficiently heavy that the hull and ring required some re-enforcement as in early trials the ring was distorting causing slow and erratic traverse.

I would assume that Churchill regiments in either theatre managed to retain as many 6pdr tanks as they needed to, as otherwise a 6pdr Mk7 would have soon appeared as a local modification- not an impossible job even in the field.

With regard to armour the photo of the MkIV chuchill (possibly 48th RTR) passing the Tiger in Tunisia, which shows added armour on the front quarters, still has not been explained.

Steve

 

Apologises if this has been posted already:

I've come across this picture in an old book (VE Day, The Album)

Soon after British Tanks had crossed the Rhine on the 24th they linked up with US Paratroopers dropped behind German lines. Here men of the US 17th Airborne Division hitch a ride on the back of a Churchill tank of the Guards Armoured Brigade in the town of Appelhulsen as they head towards Munster some nine miles away.

 

Thanks Gerry for the reply on the tracks, and I had read somewhere that the use of track links as additional armour was ineffective. But I was really wondering how these Churchills came to be carrying track links from Sherman tanks.

The 6 GTB only had Churchill IV, Churchil IV OP, Daimler scoutcar, Stuart V, Crusader AA, Churchill ARV vehicles.

 

Mainly because there were a lot more dead Shermans around to strip the tracks from. Forbes says:
"Senior Officers visited other Tank Brigades to study conditions and gain practical knowledge. A tank graveyard was inspected, and as a result of the expedition, track plates were feverishly welded onto turrets and hulls in hopes that they would help to stop the dreaded 88s and 75s which had caused such havoc to the shattered remnants of the graveyard."

 

Panther track was much better..................

 

The human shield never caught on, though...

 

Hi Just joined the website and saw your post, my father was in the 6th guards armoured brigade, they landed in normandy around 2 weeks after d-day, the first thing they done on arrival was to go to a tank graveyard and get tracks welded on the tanks, it didnt make any difference what tracks, so there was no special reason why they were sherman"s, probally because they were more numerous

My father has the picture in the middle, probally mass produced for the brigade

Hi, Where did you get this photo?

All the american paratroopers had a usa flag on their right arm

 

I asked my father about the welding of the tracks to the turrets, he was a gunner in a churchill, he said you could certainly feel the extra weight, it took 2 men to lift a plate, though he said plates were not welded to the rear of the turret as the large stowage bin was on the back.

 

Gerry Chester


Hi Gerry,

Absolutely agree that the track link thing was fairly pointless.

It has been said that to an extent C in C NWE was willing to turn a blind eye to this practice, however unsound it was, as it seemed to improve morale.

The real problem for traverse speed was that the extra weight was unbalancing the turret. an equal weight would have to be fitted to the rear of the turret and that would beyond the scope of in the field modification. The Mk7 turret was significantly heavier but retained a similar capacity traverse drive motor. The Mk7 turret was sufficiently heavy that the hull and ring required some re-enforcement as in early trials the ring was distorting causing slow and erratic traverse.

I would assume that Churchill regiments in either theatre managed to retain as many 6pdr tanks as they needed to, as otherwise a 6pdr Mk7 would have soon appeared as a local modification- not an impossible job even in the field.

With regard to armour the photo of the MkIV chuchill (possibly 48th RTR) passing the Tiger in Tunisia, which shows added armour on the front quarters, still has not been explained.

Steve

Problem was that, as Infantry tanks, the enemy was more likely to consist of antitank guns than other tanks. The 75mm HE shell was vastly better at knocking out such targets than either the 6pdr HE shell or AP shot, and the antitank peformance not much worse. Hence why they produced the Mk IV NA75 (Sherman 75mm guns on Mk IV Churchills) to get a decent HE shell onto the infantry tanks in the Med theatre - and the North Irish Horse had them too!

Chris