Hello David, Further to your message on the 3rd Reconnaissance Bn. South African Tank Corps thread. “Christine. I hope you don't mind me hijacking this thread for a moment, but I have a question for Steve regarding the 50th Recce Regiment. Steve, I have the following dates for their arrivals and withdrawals from the North African theatre, do you concur? Arrive 06/06/41. Withdrawn 26/07/41. Return @ 26/11/41. Withdrawn ??/02/42. Return @ 28/02/42.” According to The History of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers in the Second World War (Barclay), the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (50th Recce): Left for the Middle East from Newport on HMT Arundel Castle on 24 June 1941. It disembarked at Tewfik on 23 August 1941 and moved into camp at Quassasin in the Canal zone. It left Egypt to join Fifty Div in Cyprus on 10 September 1941, arriving at Famagusta on 13 September 1941. It embarked on destroyers in Cyprus for Haifa on 12 November 1941. To Bagush nr Mersa Matruh early December 1941 - with 150th Infantry Brigade, Fifty Div. To Haifa early January 1942 - with 151st Infantry Brigade, Fifty Div. Sometime in the next month it moved to Quairsia, nr Homs (Syria)... no date unfortunately. To Sidi-Bishr end February 1942 – to become a Motor Battalion, of the Support Group, 22nd Armoured Brigade, 1st Armoured Division. It severed its link with Fifty Div. To Beni-Yusef nr Cairo in March 1942 - for refitting for its new role. To Bir Beleifa nr Knightsbridge in early May 1942. Recce Mitch posted the WD’s for the period from October 1941 here: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/recce/36842-50-recce-war-diary.html -which should help with the dates from 1 December 1941. Best, Steve.
Thanks Steve, that's great. Do you know if they refered to themselves as the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland fusiliers when they became a Motor Battalion?
Thanks Steve, that's great. Do you know if they refered to themselves as the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland fusiliers when they became a Motor Battalion? Hello David, Their official designation was '50th Battalion The Reconnaissance Corps', although they maintained many RNF traditions including using the rank 'Fusilier' rather than Trooper or Private - 'Only the Enemy In Front' (R Doherty). Personally, I believe the 'old hands' would have held on to their RNF traditions and roots, especially the RNF Officers. This would have probably waned as time went by -new blood and all that - but given 50th Recce's demise in June 1942 any new wave of non-RNF leaning would have been short-lived. Best, Steve.
Thanks again Steve. But doesn't it strike you as odd that they retain the designation 50th AFTER severing their links with the 50th Division?
Thanks again Steve. But doesn't it strike you as odd that they retain the designation 50th AFTER severing their links with the 50th Division? The veterans on this forum would qualify that by saying 'Army', meaning don't look for any logic in outcomes where the British Army of WWII is concerned. I know what they mean, look at what happened to 4RNF. The 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusliers had five distinct roles just before and during WWII: 1) Infantry Battalion, 149th Infantry Brigade, Fifty Div, until 1938; 2) Motor Cycle Recce Battalion, Divisional Troops, Fifty Div, until March/April 1941 - this included 3 platoons of Daimler Dingos; 3) 50th Recce Bn/Regt, Fifty Div until February 1942; 4) 50th Recce Bn/Regt, Motor Battalion, Support Group, 22nd Armoured Brigade, 1st Armoured Division until its demise in the Knightsbridge battles on 6 June 1942; and 5) Independent MG Companies (three), operating Vickers MG's for/with 7th Armoured, Guards Armoured and 11th Armoured Division in NW Europe. It may well have been intended that 50th Recce returned to Fifty Div at some time in the future, so why change the designation. After its demise in the Knightsbridge battles the 4th Bn RNF title was resurrected. 50th Recce's permanent replacement in Fifty Div was 61st Recce, which joined just before the NW Europe campaign. Interestingly, bar one or two annomolies the CWGC shows those killed in the Knightsbridge battles as: '50TH 4TH BN THE ROYAL NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS REGT - RECONNAISSANCE CORPS' Best, Steve.
Thanks again Steve. But doesn't it strike you as odd that they retain the designation 50th AFTER severing their links with the 50th Division? No not at all. 44 Recce was with 44 Div but then served with 56th Division. 56 Recce was with 78th Division.
No not at all. 44 Recce was with 44 Div but then served with 56th Division. 56 Recce was with 78th Division. Owen, does that make you odd?
One source I read reported that a surviving fragment of 50 Recce served with a 50th Div battle group during the opening phase of First Alamein. I don't recall the reference offhand, but I could try and dig it up if people are interested and don't mind waiting.
One source I read reported that a surviving fragment of 50 Recce served with a 50th Div battle group during the opening phase of First Alamein. I don't recall the reference offhand, but I could try and dig it up if people are interested and don't mind waiting. I didn't know that Alan and would be very interested in finding out more. I did know that: 1) The survivors of the Knighsbridge debacle received intensive training on the 6-Pdr Anti-Tank gun and were employed as a Coy in an anti-tank role during the retreat to the Alamein line; 2) They assisted the 5th Indian Division in the Ruweisat Ridge battles on the 14 & 15 July 1942; 3) A few days later they handed the guns over to Australian troops and withdrew to Cairo; 4) Here the Officers were posted to the 1st Bn The Kings Royal Rifle Corps and the O.R.s to the 1st Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers; 5) A party of two Officers and ten O.R.s were sent back to the UK to reconstitute the 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. They left Cairo on the 22 September 1942; and 6) The 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers were reconstituted initially with an intake from the 2nd Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, mainly men trained on the 4.2 inch mortar. NB. Apparently the base plate for the 4.2 inch mortar was instigated by the (new) 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers in early 1943 and was later taken into use throughout the British Army. I am interested in all things 4th Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers - family connections - and Fifty Div - again family connections. Best, Steve.
Steve: Sorry, I was wrong in my last post and you were right. I checked my book and I have the surviving fragment of 50 Recce serving as an anti-tank company with Robcol. This ad hoc battle group consisted mainly of elements of 10th Indian Div, among other odds and ends, but was not connected with 50th Division. The whole 8th Army OOB for July 1942 is very confused, and it is hard to determine just which elements of 50th Div were present in the battle area and when.
* Thanks for checking, Alan. Given the quote, it reveals the extent of the transformation that occurred when Monty became OC 8th Army. First Alam Halfa, then El Alamein from 23 October 1942 and the Axis forces in North Africa defeated by 13 May 1943 (albeit not all by the 8th Army). Best, Steve.
