6285338 Private John Bernard Jordan, 5 Royal East Kent Regiment, The Buffs

Do you have a date of deployment to France on his service records?

I would look to confirm if he went to France with 5 Buffs first. There was an notable amount of ad hoc units at Boulogne along with the Welsh and Iriah Guards so its not unreasonable for him to have been there but the Germans captured Boulogne on the 25th May. I've come across a significant amount of infantry attached to other units to make up short falls on units war establishments so I'm wondering if this may have been the case with him.

I believe Rob has a full copy of 5 Buffs war diary so tracking down this Lt H. Cook in field returns maybe the best start to trying to find your father - I'll ask Rob to check.

Andy

 

Lt Cook does not appear in either the nominal roll or the officers field return of 29 April 1940, 9 days after arriving at Le Havre. Ive looked through everything I have and as Jack says, nothing on his Father in the Nominal Rolls either.

 

I think he may have been attached to another unit. I'll go through some of the unit diaries that were at Boulogne.

I've tried to find Lt. H Cook in the London Gazette but I never have any luck with that site.

 

Thanks for the help.

My post 13 shows that he arrived in France 17/4/40 with 5th Buffs.

He was captured on the 26th May (ironically, his birthday!!) the day after the Germans arrived at Boulogne.

It's the fact that he is not listed on any official docs that is frustrating.

Is it possible that Lt Cook and Ken (plus others unknown) were detached for other duties outside of the Battalion?

Jack.

 

Andy

Great minds think alike. I tried the LG route as well and found nothing either.

 

Lt. Cook should be the easier of the two to find which may help assuming they were together.

Jack I do suspect they may have been used to make up another units War Establishment either before or after arriving in France.

 

War diary of the 5th Buffs states that they departed the UK on the 19th April and arrived in Le Havre on the 20th. No mention in the WD of an advance party going ahead of the rest.

The WD did state earlier that the date of departure was altered from 20th to 17th April, but the above happened and they left slightly later.

 

His service records say he was at a English Dock on the 16th and arrived in France on 17th April. Something was granted on 3rd March - I thought leave but can't make it out.

Posted missing on the 20th May but recorded a PoW on the 17th May.
Can anyone add to the hard to read bits that are to the right of the above dates?

 

My dads papers state that he was a chauffeur/gardener before joining up, so maybe the driver bit may account for his driving the ambulance and was detached to another unit. Did the 5th Buffs have ambulances within the regiment?

Jack.

 

His service records say he was at a English Dock on the 16th and arrived in France on 17th April. Something was granted on 3rd March - I thought leave but can't make it out.

Posted missing on the 20th May but recorded a PoW on the 17th May.
Can anyone add to the hard to read bits that are to the right of the above dates?




Looks like Officer in charge of Infantry Records, a name, then Major.

 

My dads papers state that he was a chauffeur/gardener before joining up, so maybe the driver bit may account for his driving the ambulance and was detached to another unit. Did the 5th Buffs have ambulances within the regiment?

Jack.

No, I would think he was either taking wounded from his own unit in one of their vehicles or he was 'dicked' by an officer to drive a actual ambulance. The thing that really doesn't fit is driving casualties from the battalion location around that time to Boulogne. I would have thought they would have been evacuating casualties from Le Havre which is a lot nearer and safer.

The Buffs division (12 Div) had 182 Field Ambulance and being part of the Rouen Base Sub Area they also had two General Hospitals, two Field Hygiene Sections and a Convalescent Depot. There was also two Ambulance Car Company's under the RASC with the Sub Base Area so that part seems well covered.

 

Thanks for the latest Drew.

Dads Questionaire for POW's states that it was Boulogne where he was captured (attached) which is way north of Le Harve, so once again the 'fog of war' hides the reasons.

Tim, sorry for hijacking this thread, over to you, thanks.

Jack.

 

Jack

Don’t worry about thinking you’ve hijacked the thread. It is just nice to find someone else who has a connection to the 5th Buffs.

Perhaps the difference in the service documentation was just due to the fact that Jack Jordan was in the Territorials prior to the war whereas your father joined up just prior to it all.

You know, thinking about the fact that both our soldiers were reported missing on the 17th May, it all seems a bit of a co-incidence. Especially as they both went off on different directions, presumably as part of different detachments.

Maybe, and this is of course just speculation, because of the general hiatus and that so few of the 5th Buffs got actually got back to say when particular soldiers went missing after the battle, that the generic 17th May (by the battalion record keepers) was used as the date that those soldiers not accounted for went missing, the date when the soldiers were shipped up to ……..

Would there have been enough time for your father to have made it to Bolougne, to be asked to fill in with regards to the ambulances and then be captured on the 26th?

As for Jack Jordan the Panzers got to Fecamp around the 10th June (according to Sebag-Montefiore’s Dunkirk-Fight to the Last Man) so he had plenty of time to get there before being caught.

Just a thought.

 

I wonder if there are any studies on how the POWs (after they received the usual ‘Tommy, for you the war is over’ speech) ,were processed and fed back behind the German lines and how they were organised for the long dreadful marches back into Germany and in some cases to Poland? If, through which camps they initially went to, you could work out when abouts they were captured?

Here is Jack Jordan POW questionaire. Well, page one of it anyway. View attachment Jordan, John Bernard his POW questionaire 2 May 1945.tif

 

Jurdon,

I did an analysis of the men listed on the "B" Company nominal role for a Friend, as his Dad was shot and captured and became a POW. This is what I found:-

OFFICERS

OFLAG 1X-9A/Z 1 sent to ROTENBURG AN DER FULDA, HESSE, GERMANY
OFLAG VII-B 2 sent to EICHSTATT, BAVARIA, GERMANY

OTHER RANKS

STALAG 344 - 11 Sent to LAMBINOWICE, POLAND
STALAG 357 - 2 Sent to OERBKE, LOWER SAXONY, GERMANY
STALAG 383 - 8 Sent to HOHENFELS, RHINELAND-PALATINATE, GERMANY
STALAG BAB -20 1 Sent to KEDZIERZYN, KOZLE, POLAND
STALAG BAB -21 1 Sent to BLACHOWNIA, POLAND
STALAG IX-C - 1 Sent to MULHAUSEN, HESSE, GERMANY
STALAG VII-B - 1 Sent to EICHSTATT, BAVARIA, GERMANY
STALAG VIII-B - 3 Sent to CIESZYN, POLAND
STALAG VIII-C - 1 Sent to KONIN ZAGANSKI, POLAND
STALAG XX-A - 13 Sent to TORUN, POLAND
STALAG XX-B - 31 Sent to MALBORK, POLAND
STALAG XXI-A - 1 Sent to SCHILDBERG, MECKLENBURG – WEST POMERANIA, GERMANY

1 DIED IN CAPTIVITY, WHO IS BURIED IN POZNAN OLD GARRISON CEMETERY, POLAND (6289341 - LANE, E.T.)

TOTAL OF 78 WERE CAPTURED OUT OF A COMPANY OF 106 MEN.

OF THE REMAINDER, 27 ESCAPED AND WERE EVACUATED TO THE UK.

1 MAN WAS KILLED AND IS BURIED IN FRANCE. (J A LUNGLEY BURIED AT LA HERLIERE, WHERE HE WAS KILLED, BUT WAS GIVEN A MENTION IN DESPATCHES FOR HIS GALLANTRY. MY FRIENDS FATHER WAS ALSO SHOT AND CAPTURED HERE). SEE THREAD ABOUT J LUNGLEY

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/22519-private-john-lungley-5th-bn-royal-east-kent-regiment-buffs.html

HOPE THAT HELPS.

CHEERS - ROB.

 

From the WO 344 Series at the National Archives:

 

My father Leonard Shipp was captured in France at this time and went to both Stalag 20 a and 20b. He told me he was captured in Neufchatel, i'm guessing Neufchatel en Bray which is just north of Rouen. His red cross card states he was captured on 9th May 1940.

he was probably marched back to Rouen to be processed before being sent to Poland. has anyone any information from official records they may have. I can dig out his service number if required. I have a lot of letters that he wrote during his captivity and a photo of a group of men which was probably taken by the Germans to send home to family.

He used to say he was part of Davies Battalion, from what i can gather it was a 'scratch' Battalion put together when the Germans broke through. Any info appreciated.

 

Hi Shiplets, would appreciate the posting of the group photo.
Cheers,
Jack.

 

I'm just currently skimming through posts at the moment but I can tell you the date is wrong. The Germans didn't invade France, Belgium and Holland until 10th May and the Davies Battalion was a ad hoc unit formed in June IIRC off the top of my head.

 

Ah Jack and Drew,

i'm guilty of getting excited about seeing these posts using my memory and not referring to the paperwork i have in my file. After checking my fathers records i came across a letter from the red cross, i wrote to them some years ago and they gave me some information. He was captured on 09/06/1940 (please see red cross letter)

I have also scanned a photo you asked for and a postcard he filled in following his liberation in 1945 View attachment 111903 View attachment 111904 View attachment 111905 .


I believe my father is on the back row second from the right

Paul