79th Armoured 3-5th Nov 1944

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by brispencer, Mar 7, 2012.

  1. brispencer

    brispencer Member

    Am seeking assistance in finding documents on the actions of C Squadron, Westminster Dragoons at Meijel on 3 - 5th November 1945. I am trying to trace any records of the action where Three "Crabs" were attempting to clear a lane in support of the 6th Guards Armour. One of the tanks was hit and a second went to it's assistance. This was also hit and some or all of the crew were seen to exit. It seems that at some point after the incident at least one of the crew may have been executed by the enemy but I cannot find any details. I went to the National Archives yesterday but the records of the 79th Armoured seem to revolve around the more technical aspects of the performance of their tanks and I couldn't find any war diaries as such. Also most of the documentation seems to end Oct 1944. Can anyone give me any info or clues where to take my search. Thanks
     
  2. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    From the 1945 Divisional History book.


    MEIJEL AREA 3-5 NOVEMBER
    On November the 3rd the enemy was withdrawing before the l5th (Scottish) Division who were eventually held up by a minefield a few miles North of Meijel. Three Crabs of 'C' Squadron, Westminster Dragoons, at that time in support of 6th Guards Armoured Brigade, attempted to flail a lane. The leading Crab (Serjeant Birch) had almost completed the breach when it was hit. Small arms fire prevented the crew from dismounting so the troop commander (Lieutenant B. Pear) came up to give cover and placed his tank between the enemy gun and the other Crab. Churchills made smoke but both tanks were hit several times and Serjeant Birch's Crab "brewed-up". The attack did not go in. Lieutenant Pear did not return from this operation. On the 5th, Guards' Churchills again met mines and 23 tanks were lost in an hour. A troop of 'C' Squadron, West- minster Dragoons, arrived and "beat" a lane: suffering one brew-up and earning the personal congratulations of General Barber, commanding I5th (Scottish) Division.

    I read that as one killed (Lt Pear)
     
  3. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

  4. brispencer

    brispencer Member

    Thanks. Lt Pear was my brother in laws mothers first husband (if you follow). He did get away from the tank but there the mystery deepens. It is any details about him we are seeking. Th ebelief is that he was captured but shot. Thanks
     
  5. From "The WESTMINSTER DRAGOONS in North West Europe, June 1944 - May 1945", to be found here:
    Library

    ------------------------------------
    " Meanwhile C Squadron was resting in comfortable billets at BAKEL. The Germans had counter-attacked the American 7th Armoured Division across the canal at MEIJEL, and during the last few days the counter-attack had been going well. But, though MEIJEL was only a few miles to the South, C Squadron felt remote from the battle.

    At supper on the evening of 30th October, the officers of C Squadron were playing poker in the Mess. At about 1030 p.m. the game was interrupted by the arrival of a breathless Squadron Clerk, with an urgent message. C Squadron was to go forthwith in support of 15th Scottish Division — a Liaison Officer was to report at once to the GSO 1. The cards were dealt and the holder of the lowest card, Lt. John Hubble departed. The game of poker continued.

    Two hours later Lt. Hubble returned. The Squadron was to be in support of 6th Guard Tank Brigade who were supporting 15th Scottish Division. One Troop of the Squadron was to join the Tank Coldstream Guards at UREEKWIJK early next morning. Lt. Hubble was again unlucky in the draw and No. 2 Troop found themselves making an early start the next morning. The task of 15th Scottish Division was to drive the Germans back across the canal at MEIJEL.

    No. 2 Troop joined the Coldstream Guards as arranged, and very shortly after their arrival mines were reported near LIESEL. Three tanks flailed a total distance of 200 yards but no mines were set off. The advance continued. Mean time the remainder of the Squadron moved to the badly smashed village of VLIERDEN.
    On the next day the Coldstream Guards again reported mines. 2. Troop flailed again and this time set off five mines. L/C. Rashleigh's tank was severely damaged by blast and the tank was withdrawn to VLIERDEN for repairs.

    On the 2nd of November the Coldstream Guards and 2 Troop with them, were withdrawn. The Grenadier Guards with 3 Troop, commanded by Lt. Pear, took their place. A full scale attack was put in and met practically no opposition. By the end of the day an advance of three miles had been made and the leading troops had met no mines.

    But 3 Troop had trouble. Lt. Pear was approached by a very harrassed Major of Artillery. This officer had apparently lost one of his carriers in a minefield. He had followed in another carrier hoping to assist, and had been blown up. Could the flails help?

    In the subsequent assistance two tanks were damaged by mines, one so badly that it was written off.

    It seemed as if the enemy had withdrawn back across the canal. The plan for the day was that No. 3 Troop would flail a lane through the mines on the road and then the Reconnaissance Regiment would go through to regain contact with the enemy. No. 3 Troop would have the support of eight Churchill tanks from the Grenadiers.

    Early in the morning 3 Troop started flailing, Sjt. Birch leading, Cpl. Shaw next and Lt. Pear at the rear. They passed a Churchill and an Armoured Car that had been blown up on mines the previous day. To avoid these they had to go into a field on the right of the road, Cpl. Shaws tank struck a tree which put his flail temporarily out of action, and Lt. Pear therefore took his place.

    Suddenly, when the flailing was almost complete, Sjt. Birch's tank was hit by fire from an Anti-Tank gun; the crew were uninjured and the tank did not start to burn, but Lt. Pear ordered Sjt. Birch to bale out. Sjt. Birch replied that every time he tried to, a machine-gun opened fire on him. Hearing this the Churchill tanks of the Grenadiers put down smoke around Sjt. Birch's tank.

    Lt. Pear then announced his intention of coming up to use his tank as a shield in front of Sjt. Birch's tank, enabling the crew to bale out."

    The smoke made it very difficult to see exactly what was happening. Through gaps in the smoke both tanks were suddenly seen to be on fire. In the meantime Cpl. Shaw's tank hit a mine and was unable to move. He ordered his crew to bale out, and a few minutes later their tank, too, was set on fire by the Anti-tank gun.

    The Grenadier Guards gave fire support and put down smoke for another hour in spite of the fact that they themselves were having casualties. It enabled Cpl. Shaw and his crew to crawl back to safety. Of Lt. Pear's and Sjt. Birch's crews there was only one survivor, Tpr. Whitford. He was wounded and taken prisoner. The loss of this excellent officer, his Sjt. and their very gallant men was a sad blow.

    The volume of fire produced by the Germans on this morning was so great that all operations by 15th Scottish Division were postponed for 48 hours. It was decided to launch a full scale attack on the 5th November, and for this No. 1 Troop, commanded by Lt. Hoban, took the place of No. 3. Troop in support of the Grenadiers.

    On the morning of 5th November the Grenadiers met mines on their start line at SCHELM. Sjt. Barnes and Cpl. Wild were therefore sent forward to deal with them. Under considerable enemy shelling they began flailing. Both tanks were successfully setting off mines when Cpl. Wild's tank was itself blown up."
    ------------------------------------


    The War Diary might have more details (although the above Story is certainly written with the War Diary as basis) and you might want to contact the WD Regimental Association:
    The Westminster Dragoons Regimental Association

    The only survivor, Tpr Whitford, may have left an account of the events somewhere? Maybe the Tank Museum has some info too.

    Here are all the fatal casualties of Westminter Dragoons on this dark day:

    Lt Brian Hatherly PEAR (245363), 28 years old
    Lieutenant Brian Hatherley Pear | War Casualty Details 245363 | CWGC

    No.7912202 Sjt Albert George BIRCH, 30 years
    Serjeant Albert George Birch | War Casualty Details 7912202 | CWGC

    No.14429259 Tpr George Sackville BLAKE, 19
    Trooper George Sackville Blake | War Casualty Details 14429259 | CWGC

    No.7924757 Tpr James John CLEARY, 31
    Trooper James John Cleary | War Casualty Details 7924757 | CWGC

    No.7937024 Tpr Francis Henry DOWNES, 33
    Trooper Francis Henry Downes | War Casualty Details 7937024 | CWGC

    No.14239658 Tpr James Fleming LANG, 22
    Trooper James Fleming Lang | War Casualty Details 14239658 | CWGC

    No.14416858 Tpr Ronald B. MILLER, 19
    Trooper Ronald B. Miller | War Casualty Details 14416858 | CWGC

    No.5052668 Tpr Greville Tom PAGE, 28
    Trooper Greville Tom Page | War Casualty Details 5052668 | CWGC

    The fact that Lt Pear is buried in a different cemetery might indicate that he was taken away before he died.

    Also notable is the fact that there are 8 men listed as fatal casualties, plus Tpr Whitford, wounded and POW. This makes up a total of 9 men for two tanks for a normal complement of 10 men, so either one tank had one man less (which was frequent), or one is unaccounted for, maybe also POW.

    As for the belief that one of the crew (maybe Lt Pear) being executed after his capture by the enemy, I think that such an act would have been duly noted in the narrative above, as it would have become known by the time it was written. But of course nothing is certain.

    What is the source for this belief? Can it be traced to one or more specific time, event or document? I'm not questioning this belief either way, just trying to find more more about this matter.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  6. WW2PeterW

    WW2PeterW Junior Member

    Thanks. Lt Pear was my brother in laws mothers first husband (if you follow). He did get away from the tank but there the mystery deepens. It is any details about him we are seeking. Th ebelief is that he was captured but shot. Thanks

    Hi, I live near Maasbree, in the Netherlands, where Lt. Brian Hatherly Pear has been buried next to 5 soldiers of the 49th Reconnaissance Regiment.

    For several years now I'm trying to get more background information/documents about all of them: who they were, what they did, how they died.
    Also I'm looking for any photographs to see what they looked like, and give them a face.

    I know it's a long shot after all those years but maybe you can help me concerning Lt. Pear.

    What I found so far:
    As I have been researching the local archives over here myself, I haven't found anything about the possible capture and/or shooting of Lt. Pear.

    As soon as Maasbree was liberated, its cemetery and other nearby places were used to 'collect' miscellaneous fieldgraves. At some point over 200 were buried here. Death dates ranging from early september '44 up to march '45, many unknown.

    One document (unfortunately undated) lists all graves (allied and german).
    At that moment Lt. Pear's grave (marked number 33, died november 4, 1944) lies surrounded by several german casualties (numbered 29 through 35, dates of death ranging from november 2nd - 5th, 1944).

    Except for Lt. Pear and the five others of the 49th (Westminster) Reconnaissance regiment, all other casualties have been disinterred, right after the war ended.

    In another document (dated may '51) states the relocation of his grave within Maasbree cemetery to form one single row with the other 5.
     
  7. Apparently one of the destroyed Crabs was named 'COUP DE GRACE'. See IWM FiIm A70 194-7:
    MINE CLEARANCE IN MEIJEL (PART 2) [Allocated Title]

    Unfortunately the clip is not online, and I couln't find it in either British Pathé or Critical Past. I'd be very interested in seeing what this tank looks like...

    Michel
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  8. Bruce Beavis

    Bruce Beavis New Member

    Just found this forum and I am interested in the Westminster Dragoons as well. My great uncle was Trooper Downes killed on 3 Nov 1944. Has anyone been to Mierlo War Cemetery and looked at the graves of the unknown soldiers. If I look up the CWGC record for Tpr Downes, and look at the concentration form, it appears to indicated that there were three unidentified members of the Westminster Dragoons re-interred at Mierlo. On the Groesbeek Memorial, Troopers Blake, Cleary, Lang, and Page are all commemorated as a result of having no known grave.
    Casualty
    Also, does anyone know the nominal role for C Sqn on D-Day. Would be interested in knowing whether my great uncle was there on the day.

    Look forward to hearing more!

    Bruce
     
  9. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    What I have learned is that a troop of three Flails of the Westminster Dragoons (no. 3 Tp, "C" Sqn) were tasked with clearing part of the extensive minefields along the road from Neerkant to Meijel, in preparation for an attack on the German held village of Meijel scheduled for 4 November. The Troop was commanded by Lt. Pear, the commanders of the other tanks were Sergeant Birch and Corporal Shaew. The Flails were accompanied by 8 Churchill tanks of the 4th Grenadier Guards who were to protect them from enemy fire. Unknown to the British a couple of Jagdpanzer IV of the 15.Pz Grenadier Div lay in wait and ambushed the Flails. Three of the Churchills were hit, but managed to pull back under cover of smoke. Two of the Flails were hit and brewed up with most of the crew members, including Sergeant Birch, killed. The third one ran over a mine. Two crew members - Lt. Pear and Tp. Whitford - were severly wounded and taken POW. Pear later died of his wounds in the German Field Hospital at Maasbree, where his body still rests at the local cemetery.

    jagdpanzer1.jpg
    Developed as a replacement for the successful Sturmgeschütz III series of assault guns, the Panzerjäger IV was based on the lower hull and chassis of the reliable Pzkw IV tank. The new Panzerjäger ("tank hunter") design was armed with the same 7.5 cm gun as fitted to the Panther: the Pak 42 L/70. They were very successful tank destroyers but performed poorly when used out of role as substitutes for tanks or assault guns, such as in the later stages of the war, because there was often nothing else available. Installing the much heavier Pak 42 meant that the Jagdpanzer IV was nose heavy, especially with the heavy frontal armor. This made them less mobile and more difficult to operate in rough terrain, leading their crews to nickname them Guderian-Ente ("Guderian's duck"). To prevent the rubber rims of the roadwheels being dislocated by the weight of the vehicle, some later versions had steel roadwheels installed on the front. Sensing a British attack on Meijel the 15. Pz Gren Div in early November gradually started to pull out its troops from the small bridgehead of Meijel that was formed by the abortive German counterattack of late October 1944. Still eight Jagdpanzer IV and one Stug were left inside to protect the frontline. Two knocked out Panzerjäger IV's were later found by the British after they finally recaptured the village about November 14th.

    Source: Hugo Levels, "Waar blijven de Bevrijders, November - december 1944, Door Modder en Mijnen, Frontperiode Noord- en Midden-Limburg", page 21. This is tome 2 of a trilogy on the battles for the Dutch province of Noord- and Midden-Limburg. Tome 1 deals with the September - October 1944 battles (Market-Garden & Overloon & Meijel counterattack).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  10. Hi Bruce,

    Interestingly, George Sackville Blake was MY Great Uncle and is one of the troopers in the unmarked grave. Just thought I'd say hi. I have a lot of information on his father (my Great Grandfather) Cpt William Alfred Blake of the HAC during WWI (I even have his sword). But I have only recently started to research his son George. I am finding it very difficult to find much specifically on Blake. I do have copies of his obituaries including MIA followed sadly by KIA. My Grandmother has visited the Groesbeek Memorial and I hope to do so too some day.
     
  11. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

    Lt. Pear and Trooper Withford were taken prisoner by the Germans. Both were wounded and taken to a boysschool in the village of Maasbree. In this school was a Feldlazeret (Hospital) Withford was interrogated by the Germans. Information written in a German Kriegstagebuch (wardiary). Lt. Pear died 4/11/44 and was buried amoung the German killed soldiers. His sister visited his grave until her dead. In my possession a couple of old photo's of Pears grave. A photo of Brian and his wife also.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

    Lt. Pear wasn't shot by the Germans, they tried everything they could to save his live. But in vain, he must have been severly wounded (burned).
    For more information please contact me.
     
  13. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

    Then you have to read: The Story of the Westminster Dragoons.
     
  14. According to the May 26 War Diary, "Nominal rolls of personnel under 50 (N) Div,a total of 14 officers and 206 ORs, have been sent today to 2nd Echelon."
    However, they are not included in the Regimental War Diary at The National Archives, and may not have been preserved. You might want to contact the WD Regimental Association to see what they have. There website exists no longer, but they have a page on fb:
    Westminster Dragoons Regimental Association FB site. | Facebook

    Michel
     
  15. If you have Tpr Downes' Service Record, this should indicate on what date he was sent over. If you don't, you should request them. :)

    Michel
     
  16. Film is now online (link updated in quoted post):
    Crab name COUP DE GRACE - 16 Nov 44 - A70 194-7 00.47-54 [Laws] - stitch.jpg
    Crab name COUP DE GRACE - 16 Nov 44 - A70 194-7 01.18 [Laws].jpg

    The T-number might be readable on a hi-res version of the film.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
  17. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

    I can follow. You mean Betty, married to Brian in 1943.
     
  18. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

     

    Attached Files:

  19. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

     

    Attached Files:

  20. Captain BX

    Captain BX Captain GBX

    A month ago I adopted the grave of Lt. Brian Hatherly Pear.
     
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