7th Bn Green Howards - Stanley Coleman - Hartlepool

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Chris WIlletts, Mar 26, 2021.

  1. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The reason these two men don’t get a mention in the War Diary of the 7th Bn Green Howards is because they were not Green Howards. My interpretation is that these two men were 23rd Division HQ troops of the Royal Corps of Signals.

    The reason the War Diary of the 7th Bn Green Howards doesn’t specifically mention your great uncle is likely down to the unusual events. Evacuation from Dunkirk, travel to a collection point somewhere in the UK, with officers and men taken PoW, wounded and in hospital, dispersed, etc. In addition, on return from France, the 23rd Infantry Division was broken up with the 70th Infantry Brigade (5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment + 6th and 7th Bns Green Howards) joining the 1st line 50th (Northumbrian) Division somewhere else in the UK on circa 1 July 1940.

    The responsible officers would have had their hands full and your great uncle’s death being recorded in the War Diary, was omitted. You can only imagine the havoc that ensued during and after the evacuation. We were expecting an invasion.
     
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  2. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    As TD said it was chaos. The 7th were not broken up but I think we would be a little naive to imagine the battle being fought in strict military block formations.From the GH link I added it states;-

    "The Green Howards 6th and 7th Territorial Battalions are sent out to France in April 1940. These soldiers are very inexperienced and are only sent to France to help construct aerodromes. They are not equipped for fighting and it is expected that they will return to England in June to complete their training."

    Similar circumstances to 10th and 11th DLI ? It would be interesting to see how many (7th GH) were lost as `Prisoners of war`. I think when members recommend the service record route they are attempting to reduce speculation to a minimum and thats excellent advice
    Of course you must bear in mind when the `fog of war` descends record keeping / surviving documents might not reflect any temporary attachments to battlefield formations and without a body/burial location it will make your search just that little bit harder

    Kyle
     
  3. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Thank you for these recommendations, keep them coming. I am reading the book:
    Fighting Through From Dunkirk to Hamburg: A Green Howard's Wartime Memoir

    Incredible so far!
     
  4. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    I can only imagine how chaotic things were. Reading the book "Fighting Through From Dunkirk to Hamburg: A Green Howard's Wartime Memoir" has been amazing to understand just what it was like. Thank you paulcheall for your work.

    I am amazed at the documentation that was collected at the time, especially after all they went and going through. I was just hopeful the John Dimmock being the only death would be noted somewhere and complete his story.
     
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Usually in War Diaries officers are mentioned by name, sometimes Sgts but for the rest of the troops they are known as OR's. If they were involved in small patrols (say perhaps 4 or 5) and killed, captured etc then they could be mentioned by name.

    So in War Diaries written some time after an event such as Dunkirk writing up the names of everyone who was killed or captured would prove difficult, and they were generally gathered together in Annex's

    The man you are after I would suggest will not appear as "Pte Dimmock was killed on such and such a date at this location, and was killed by ......"

    I have a relative who was a Lt but was transferred to another Regt from his original as they need replacements, he went on patrol one night with a Corporal and 2 x privates, none returned and the WD states along the lines "Lt X and 3 OR's not returned from patrol presumed killed" - the extra info was to be found in a regimental history, but even so its rare to come across

    By all means keep looking and reading dont expect anything then if something turns up thats great, its called research

    TD
     
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  6. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Tricky Dicky thank you for the Dunkirk recommendation, I watched 1958 Dunkirk whilst sick with Lock jaw last week. I am ok but caught up on my war movies and reading.

    News update: after sharing information with my Nana: " A Chaplin from Dunkirk witnessed J.Dimmock become burred in the sand dunes, he gathered his belonging before covering him and up and running for his life" That Chaplin later mailed J.Dimmock belongings to my Great Grandmother Minnie Dimmock a wallet with the hole that the shell had passed through, gloves and a packed pipe" (along with other name tags that Minnie and my Nana couldn't figure out)

    After some memory digging she remembered years after the war that her and Stanley were visiting St John of God hospital in Scorton, visiting her grandfather when Stanley met a fellow 7th BN at the hospital who was visiting someone. That person then mentioned he was there at J.Dimmock death. That he was one of the 3 people hit by the shell that killed John in the middle.

    Who are the other 2 people? Was this the incident of the shelling 31st 0600?

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  7. Hi Chris,
    Just to expand on the post from Steve Mac re Signals:
    23 Div Sigs – Administrative Order No. 2 issued 27 March 1940;
    … regarding the move overseas clarified that the only Signals personnel to go overseas were the Dispatch Rider Sub-Section of Divisional Signals, together with one subaltern, his driver/batman and an 8cwt truck taken from the “B” Cable Section of No. 1 Signal Company.

    I have found no Royal Corps of Signal fatalities from 23 Divisional Signals. One entry on the Dunkirk Memorial is for 2567576 Signalman Sam Musgrave, 31,
    has a date of death given as 8 April 1945. He was taken prisoner on the retreat and reported to have died in an air raid in 1945.
    best wishes with the research.

    Mel
     
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  8. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    How can I find a list of people injured at Dunkirk from the 7th Green Howards? Or Chaplin names, this may help my Nana remember more.
     
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Home link to Green Howards Museum

    TD
     
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  10. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Thank you but I cannot find the 7th Green Howard’s injured list on the website.

    I did submit an inquest to the museum for professional research. They said they would get back to me early April...

    Can anyone help?
     
  11. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Steve - where can I find a copy of the The Story of the Green Howards 1939-1945? Do you
    Hi Steve, looked high and low, do you know how I can get a copy of The Story of the Green Howards 1939-1945. My Nana mentioned that Stanley was looking for a book that he was mentioned by a friend. He never found the book and my Nana can't remember the name. This is around 1950's when he was looking.

    Thanks for you help Steve.
     
  12. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  13. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Thanks Kyle, that is the only version I can see online :( for a huge price! Being in the USA brings its difficulties also.
     
  14. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    I got my copy for much less than that and from a UK source too, Chris. Just bide your time and keep checking online every couple of weeks.

    If I recall correctly, when I purchased my copy there were 3 for sale. I bought the best condition book, not the cheapest. I think it cost circa £120, but I could have purchased a copy for under £50.

    If you live near Richmond, North Yorkshire, why not visit the Green Howards museum? I would think they’ll have a copy/copies.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  15. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Thanks Steve, will keep checking. I was really hoping that it could be digitalized.

    Unfortunately I live in the USA Charlotte (Nice weather) but when I come back to England to visit the Green Howard Museum is a must! I am from Hartlepool originally.

    I have been reading:
    ww2 8th army operation scipio
    The Path of the 50th E W Clay
    History of the Green Howards 300 years

    About to read:
    50th at Bay The years of defeat.

    Recommend any other books Steve?

    My Nana mentioned a book that mentioned my Grandad Stanley, she said someone told him about it but he couldn't find it. This was in the 1950's. Trying to think what was printed around then.
     
  16. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hartlepool to Charlotte is quite a big change. You wouldn’t happen to know a family in Hartlepool by the name of Jeffels would you?

    My recommendations would depend on what you are specifically interested in, Chris.

    Is it solely the 7th Bn Green Howards, or perhaps it’s brigade, the 69th Infantry Brigade, or its Divisions, first the 23rd and then the 50th (Northumbrian) Division?

    Let me know and I will make recommendations!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  17. Chris WIlletts

    Chris WIlletts Active Member

    Yes it is. I am the only one that moved 10 years. Started off in Detroit (Amazing car city) That name doesn't ring a bell but i'll ask my family.

    First interest is the 7th Green Howards. then the 69th Infantry Brigade. I have a hand full of the 50th books.

    Still puzzled which book my Grandad would of been mentioned in around 1950's....

    Thanks always Steve
     
  18. paulcheall

    paulcheall Son of a Green Howard


    You're welcome Chris. Labour of love if there ever was one!
    I've been reading through the post and various replies but can't really contribute anything beyond what's been said, other than to quote a passage from a memoir written by Major Petch of 6 Green Howards about Dunkirk:
    " ... We marched to Bray Dunes arriving on sands about 3 a.m. on May 30th after a six hour trek. It was a long tiring march but everyone was more cheerful. There were thousands of lorries and every kind of transport dumped and all officer’s kit was left behind the canal.

    Thousands of troops were on the 6 miles of beach between Bray Dunes and Dunkirk and I could have left with the 37 of my Company immediately, but decided to join the rest of the Battalion further on.

    Carmichael and a few others went on a raft and reached the boats. Bill Richards and part of C Company also went on small boats to the larger ones. The small boats were abandoned and no one brought them back for further transport of troops. Consequently for another day we hid in the sand dunes hoping for a raft or boat to appear.

    Carmichael later told us that all the men dug out holes in the sand to hide from the bombing of the German planes. They dug one for him but when he arrived two young frightened solders from another Battalion were hiding in it and he said that they could stay there and he would go over the dune. Sadly a mortar landed in the hole and they were both killed.

    As Beach Control Officer and seeing there was little chance of getting away from the shore, I took a car to Bray Dunes and found General Herbert. I then motored him 6 miles along a soft sand shore littered with wreckage on to Dunkirk and motored along the Mole to find out that we could embark there in the afternoon.

    We were spasmodically being shelled and the 7th Battalion lost 10 killed and 100 wounded in embarking".

    This doesn't answer any questions but just adds to the tapestry of details around events of 30th. It does remind us how so many lads actually died and what a lucky escape for my own Dad and others.
     

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