93rd Anti-tank Regiment, RASC, Army Education Corps

Hi all,


I'm in the process of researching some information about the activities in Italy after December 1943.

The 93rd anti-tank regiment (6th Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Battalion) landed in Salerno. My grandfather was part of the regiment at that point, and then spent some time in San Marino, Taranto and Foggia. It was around San Marino at some point that there was some kind of skirmish and my grandfather was put out of action. He's not sure exactly what happened there but it involved hospitalization for a while.

At some time after that, he was transferred to RASC and there was something about HQ 56 Area and HQ3 District, and I'm not sure what either of those things mean. He was promoted to corporal in charge of the Army Education Corps, and I know this was a time in his army career he was really proud of, he did some work training men to read and write here, and I remember him saying something along the likes of 3 or 4000 men signed up to his reading and writing school. Does anyone have any information about this, or where to look for more information?

I'd really like to find some photos of this time, and the area if anyone knows where I might find some. my grandfather lost his at some point.

I think the offices he was based at were in Naples, and I also have the name Rione Sirigano comes into this somewhere as well.

I would be so grateful for any information that could be provided at all. Or just a push in the right direction, I've exhausted google!

Thanks

Laura

 

Hi Laura,

I copied the 93 AT Regts war diaries for all of 1943 the other day. I can say I stopped at copying 1944 because it was so thick-probably over 500 pages. The diaries I have cover Sicily but I also have the Regts official history for the whole war. -Let me know if there is anything you want speciacally looking up- ie a date.

Regards
Andy

 

Ps What's his name?

 

Hi
I have been researching my fathers movements and in March / April 1945 he attended a course at the RASC Training Depot, CMF (Central Mediterranean Force). From their diary they appear to have operated in the vicinity of Naples. Unfortunately I have only copied a small part specifically relating to the course and dates I believe he was in attendance at but it was quite a thick file with a lot of specific detail on staff, syllabuses, course dates and locations covering a good period of 1945. I believe they were at Nola for part of the time which is about as far NE of Vesuvius as Naples is west of it so certainly 'in the area'.
File at Kew is WO170-6261 Miscellaneous Trg. Depot 01 January 1945 - 30 November 1945
I have no idea whether this was just part of a much larger setup but it may be a good place to start. I presume you found it but Rione Sirigano comes up as a street in Naples. I guess the training establishment could have been billeted amongst a number of suitable buildings in the city.
Good luck.

 

Laura.

4 Indian Division were in action around San Marino in Sep 44. Would your grandfather have been involved with them?

Regards

FdeP

 

Hi all thanks for the responses so quickly!

Andy, I think he joined the 93rd in the middle of 43. He was previously with Pembroke yeomanry (I think the 102nd regiment). But when this was disbanded he was posted to the 93rd as a wireless operator for the Sherman m10s. So he might be in the later part of your documents. He was with them for about a year before he got injured. His name is Jack Hunt, but he might be listed as Reginald Walter Hunt, now he goes by Jack but I'm not sure if he'd have been listed by hi full name. It's his 90th birthday this year so if j can get anything interesting or useful to him, I'd like to collect it all.

Do you think the war diaries of the unit would be useful to have? I put in a request at the national archive for some war diaries and documents. But there's just so much and I'm not sure what will be useful.

Thanks for your help.
Laura

 

Hutt,
Thanks for that, that file looks like it might be useful. Do you know what kind of course your father took? I think my grandfather was primarily involved in teaching people to read and write but you never know!
Thanks for the info.
Laura

 

Minden1759
Thanks for the info, but I think he was still involved with the 93rd then. He was in San Merino around June 1944 and it was shortly after that he was involved in some artillery fire that put him out of action.
Thanks though
Laura

 

Hi Laura
I am glad the replies may be of use to you. In answer to your question, my father’s course was ‘Petroleum Fitter’ and ran at the end of March 1945. I am attaching one of the pages from the file that show what was in progress at that time including some that appear to be more ‘desk’ based. I've also included the Petroleum Course syllabus for interest. This all of course assumes it was the same establishment and the same site and from what I recall of the remainder of the file which I only skip read, was that it was quite a significant setup in the Naples area and they may well have moved location on a number of occasions.
I am intrigued about the need to run courses on reading and writing. Was this a serious deficiency in overall literacy among some ranks or were these courses run as part of a drive to get men back up to speed for civvy street? I have read somewhere that as the war came to a close, thoughts turned to preparing men for demob. It would be interesting if any veterans can comment on this.
If you have a reasonable idea of the specific units your Grandfather served in and can find the unit diaries in the catalogue at Kew then I would recommend a visit to read / copy them in person. You'll get a good idea of what they were up to on a day to day basis and if you're lucky you will occasionally find men (other than officers) identified.
On my next visit to Kew I'll have another look at the file for the training depot and will update if I find anything that may be relevant. I had intended to copy a larger section of it in any case on a future visit.
Good Luck
Graham

 

Laura.

I do not think that your grandfather would have been anywhere near San Marino in Jun 44. The Allies did not secure Rome until 5 Jun 44 and still had the long slog up to the Gothic Line - which is where San Marino sat. They did not breach the Gothic Line early late Sep 44.

Could it be a different San Marino?

Regards

Frank

 

I'll try and find time to have a look at the diaries and see if anything stands out. The ones I have contain nearly 400 pages so a specific date would really help. Ref the National Archives: If you do decide to order anything give me a shout. The Archives are extremely expensive at around a £1 per page for copying-I charge 10p. Click on the red link below for more details.

Regards
Andy

 

Hi Graham,
Thanks for the extra information, I'll try and show my grandfather that and see if jogs any memories. I know he's mentioned on a separate occasion that he often had to read letters from home to other soldiers because they couldn't themselves. I assume he was involved in the clerk side more than practical courses because he was a trained touch typist in England before he went, and it was by showing off his skills in the rehabilitation tent after his accident that he was given a job in the RASC.

Frank,
Thanks for that information, that's so helpful for figuring out the Italian part of his time abroad, now we now that he wasn't in San Marino! He's also mentioned Foggia and Taranto, so maybe there is a simliarly named town near one of those two?

Andy,
Thanks so much for that offer, that sounds great. I currently live abroad in Korea, so there's no way of me getting to Kew!
The only definite information I have is scant, and some of it isn't necessarily accurate, as proved with San Marino!
I have so far:

His unit in North Africa was disbanded in 1943, and during this time he spent some time in the hospital for a germ or bug of some kind
He joined the 93rd anti-tank battalion in early summer 1943
Early summer 1943 the 93rds were being held, as a whole battalion in Oued Seguin
They tried to land in Salerno, but they actually waited at sea before landing in Naples. This was just before Christmas 1943
Following that, they went to Taranto and Foggia, and they were somewhere around Foggia about 6th June 1944

I can ask for some more details, but his memory isn't what it used to be!
Thanks for the help and replies so far! You are all so helpful

 

Hi
Your Grandfather must have been a particularly patient person to help with those basic literacy skills. I take my hat off to him! I always understood my father had learnt shorthand before the war. Good job he didn't show anyone that skill although quite why they picked him for a Petroleum Course is anyone guess and his post war career path could not have been more different.
Re the geography. If its any consolation, Italian place names can be quite confusing and I've found some of them spelt incorrectly in the unit diaries so its only by Googling some variants and comparing that with the diary narrative that you can narrow down the most likely location. Some minor Italian villages and towns even have identical names which adds to the obfuscation! There is a San Severo just north of Foggia (my father was there in Oct 43) but to suggest that may be your San Marino would be stretching it a bit.
Have you thought about getting your Grandfathers service records?

 

While I remember. Ask your Grandfather what Battery he was in and if he can't remember what officers he served under. This will help to narrow down what part of the regiment he was in and what he was doing

 

Laura.

Foggia and Taranto would make much more sense. Taranto was a massive port in the heel of Italy and a point of disembarkation for troops and supplies. Foggia, in central Italy, was the main air base for strategic bombing into southern Germany and Austria

These were both places frequented by lots of units during thir time in Italy.

Regards

Frank

 

The Regiment arrived at Naples harbour on the 19th December 1943 at 1300hrs and disembarked at 1830hrs.

 

Laura,

I have some thoughts. I know little about Italy. My area of interest is 21 Army Group in NW Europe but the organisations were supposed to be the same.

The RASC is normally associated with transport and supplies but it also provided clerks for a wide range of headquarters. Headquarters 46 Area and Headquarters 3 District are administrative headquarters and exactly the sort of places to find RASC clerks. Many clerks were educated, or at least literate, men who were below the level of fitness for front line service. This would include men recovered or recovering from injuries.

The Army Education Corps was a small organisation with a small number of officers charged with educating troops. However they did have RASC clerks to do the donkey work. By the later stages of the war most bases and other towns in rear areas had Learning Centres organised by the Education Corps. These ran courses in languages, mathematics and what would now be called literacy skills. Many pre war soldiers were poorly educated and a fair percentage of conscripts were virtually illiterate. Many would have left school at 12, others at 14.

The men who actually did the teaching were largely volunteers from the units in the base or town.

Classes were also held in reinforcement centres, hospitals and camps for released prisoners of war.

Little seems to have been recorded about this work. I would love to hear more if you unearth anything.

Mike

 

Hi all,

Again thanks for all your help and replies, all these little details are helping to build up a bigger picture of the area and his duties.

Mike, that information about the RASC clerks and courses is super interesting. I'll definitely do my best to find out more about it, oth in the archives and from him. That info about the school leaving age and general literacy definitely ties in with his experiences, I love it when information comes together!

Andy, that detail is great thanks, I'll tell my grandfather and see if that stirs up any more memories! I'm hoping to talk to him this weekend, so I'll ask for those details, and then I'll get back to you about putting an order in for some archive research if that's okay! So, then Frank and Graham, maybe we can get an exact location on this Italian mystery!

Thanks all, you've been more than helpful already!
Laura

 

Laura.

I came across a photo of a 93 AT Regt RA M10 working with 5 FORESTERS today.

Would you like to see it?

Regards

FdeP

 

Frank,
That would be lovely thank you!