Account: 3rd Tank Bn Scots Guards, Jul 1944 - May 1945

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by dbf, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Slidex was a good system. the company or higher formation signal rep, would allocate the daily changes to cards and slide codes, maybe two a day- say 1300hrs all cards change and wipe the slides clean and with chinagraph pencil recode them. reducing the time that an enemy would find them useful. The one shown would probably be command vehicle or signal rep, there were smaller map pocket sized slidex.


    Lt Col CJR Duffin MC, SG (formerly commanding officer 1SG) retires on retired pay 5 February 1968. Listed in Music of the Scots Guards. Customary for Pipe Majors to write tunes for personalities in the regiment, and as CO one was written. (Willie McColls)
     
  2. Douglas-Pennant

    Douglas-Pennant Junior Member

    Good Evening!

    Lieutenant J.M. Barne M.C. was wounded mid of April 1945 in the outskirts of the City of Uelzen in Lower Saxony (Germany). I think this is the reason why he was not on the Officers List of the Bataillon on the 8th May.

    Have anybody more informations? Wrote Erskine something about it?

    Regards
    Andre
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hope this helps
    From The Scots Guards 1919-1955, David Erskine; page 444:

    April 15:

    The enemy held his ground with many Spandaus and S.P. guns, and these he sited skilfully to cover every approach, filling in the gaps with squads of determined PANZER GRENADIERS. This defence soon held up Left Flank on the outskirts of UELZEN where they lost their leading tank to a bazooka, and Lieutenant J.M. BARNE, M.C., was seriously wounded by small arms fire when "bailing out"
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    SG Association Gallery:


    3SG%20Tilburg.jpg
    Crusader.jpg
     
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Courtesy of forum member KevinT a list of vehicles used by 3 Tk Bn SG - includes tank names. See next post.

    Kevin and I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has further information about the tanks, other vehicles or indeed the crews. Photos would be most welcome also.

    Many thanks to Kevin for permission to use information from his spreadsheet.

    Cheers
    Diane


    To be added:

    25/11/1944, Right Flank: Lieutenant FLETCHER drove his tank down on the the reinforced river-bed but just failed to make the further side - “MONTROSE” finally slithering back to sink in the mud.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/403832-post19.html

    STUART TANK WD No. 271158. When last seen by 2696566 Sergeant R. THOMPSON it was engaged upon a Recce Patrol. 20th November 1944 at NEDERWLERT. Tank discovered abandoned with one broken track.
    Crew:
    2697304 Guardsman H. MALCOLM (Missing believed POW)
    2701570 Guardsman G. LAMOND (Missing believed POW)
    14226211 Guardsman J. HILL (Missing believed POW)
    2700809 War Substantive Corporal, Unpaid Lance-Corporal A. FENTON (Missing believed POW)
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/407568-post80.html
    --

    "Tay" (no WD No.), Left Flank, ko'd 6/8/1944. The tank was then found on 14/8/44 burnt out and holed through the front plate by a large projectile.

    Crew (all died):
    2696468 Serjeant JAMES BIRSS - Commander, KIA 6/8
    2697719 Paid Lance-Corporal D. SUTHERLAND - Driver, DOW 7/8
    2701138 Guardsman I. WALLACE - Gunner, KIA 6/8
    2697876 Guardsman H. THOMPSON - Co-Driver, DOW as POW 25/8
    2698814 Guardsman T. McINTYRE - Operator, KIA 6/8
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/407576-post81.html



    [​IMG]
     
  6. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Courtesy of forum member KevinT a list of vehicles used by 3 Tk Bn SG - includes tank names.

    Kevin and I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has further information about the tanks, other vehicles or indeed the crews. Photos would be most welcome also.

    Many thanks to Kevin for permission to use information from his spreadsheet.

    Cheers
    Diane

    Diane,

    You must be a mind reader too!
    I have just been re-sorting this list into the sequence it appeared in in Tankette 33/2, additional info comes from British Pathe, IWM, Mr. Churchill's Tank, British Tanks in Normandy etc. If this is the correct tank name seqence to Diane's list I should be able to add some crew names to the tanks.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks Kevin brilliant - I'll take down that pdf and just use my post 65 for editing in additional information.
    Do you have any link for the Pathe News footage? It'd make a nice addition - you know what a pain they are to search through... very little in descriptions to help.
     
  8. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Thanks Kevin brilliant - I'll take down that pdf and just use my post 65 for editing in additional information.
    Do you have any link for the Pathe News footage? It'd make a nice addition - you know what a pain they are to search through... very little in descriptions to help.

    The following British Pathe films show various 3rd Scots Churchills

    1147.11 "Monty's New Offencive" shows "STAFFA" after about 130 frames

    MONTY'S NEW OFFENSIVE - British Pathe

    1147.18 "The Push on the Rhine" shows "SPEY" around frame 55

    THE PUSH ON THE RHINE - British Pathe

    There is a more complete film of the above on

    1147.20 "The Push in the Rhine". Don't ask, one says on the other says in.

    THE PUSH IN THE RHINE - complete version - British Pathe

    "Dundee", "Crail" and "Garry" appear in Mr. Churchill's Tank
    "Esk" in BT White's British Tank Names
    "Lewis" in British Tanks in Normandy
    "Skye" can be found at BU 3550 on the IWM on-line site.

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
    dbf likes this.
  9. Douglas-Pennant

    Douglas-Pennant Junior Member

    Hi dbf!

    Thanks a lot for the information about Barne.
    I read the War Diary in Kew. Wounded while "bailed out" was new for me!

    Regards
    Andre
     
  10. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Thanks Kevin brilliant - I'll take down that pdf and just use my post 65 for editing in additional information.
    Do you have any link for the Pathe News footage? It'd make a nice addition - you know what a pain they are to search through... very little in descriptions to help.

    Diane,

    I am not sure where you may want to put the attached or how you want to use it but it might be of some use.

    The excellent first page is not my work but the second page is. It contains a list of vehicle census numbers or names that can be seen in each film. The last digits, reading L -R, are the frame numbers.

    Sadly it is only a drop in the ocean.

    Anyway I hope it helps.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. fozman

    fozman Member

    Hi,
    Just came across this posting... one word: Superb!!

    I've also been researching 3rd Bn Scots Guards, paricularly on Hill 226 (the "Caumont" Battle) having used it as a basis of a miniature wargame; part of which involved visiting both the Hill (now sadly bisected by a motorway) & the Cemetary at Hottot where the majority of Guardsmen killed in this action are buried.

    I've got to finish updating & revising the notes that I pulled together to go along with the game & then will post them.

    On 6th June this year, I had the great honour to be introduced to & chat with Peter Findlay who was with the Scots Guards during the battle (& beyond). A really nice gentleman... who was in Normandy with his son, Eain (who I've emailed about this narrattive)

    regards
    Colin
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Colin
    I take it it's yourself and Eain who were corresponding with Mr Davies on the BBC People's War links I posted in post 34?

    I'm afraid some of the posts towards the thread got a little out of synch after some editing I did, but the timeline should still be OK.

    Any additional information for the thread would be gratefully received.

    regards
    Diane
     
  13. fozman

    fozman Member

    Yes it was... which reminds me, I must let Mark (aeroplanegripper) know about this thread, too, as he was also researching for his wife's Grandfather.

    Some of the information I have is direct from the Scots Guards Museum... copy of War Diary entry, "O Group" prior to the attack & a few photos... As I say, I need to get them in order ('though at the moment, my "menintheshed" project has been taking precedence).. the notes that I pulled together are just a series of pieces pulled from various sources, not had the opportunity to pull together into a completely interwoven story (yet!).
    How did you come across the notes that you had with those amazing sketch maps & do you mind if I use the Caumont one in my info?
    Cheers
    Colin
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Colin the TNA (Kew) reference is given in the first post - if the link doesn't work first time, try a double-click. I am (slowly) collecting as many Guards War Diaries and Reports filed at Kew as possible.

    Feel free to use any info, that's why it is posted. The sketch maps, as far as I can tell, were used as the basis for those in Erskine's History.

    NB Kevin's list of tank names etc is his own work.
     
  15. fozman

    fozman Member

    In that case my stuff might be useful, then as, from what I can gather a lot of Guards Stuff is maintained at their own museum... In the documents I have there's a full list of tank names & commanders for each (I'm trying to find out which crews were with which, but no success on that front, as yet)
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From WO 361/613 MISSING PERSONNEL REPORTS SCOTS GUARDS, NWE.


    2700809 War Substantive Corporal, Unpaid Lance-Corporal FENTON, A., 3rd Tank Battalion SCOTS GUARDS

    1. The above-named was last seen about 1400 hours on 20th November 1944 at NEDERWLERT by 2696566 Sergeant R. THOMPSON.

    2. He was employed within the unit as Recce Tank Commander and was a member of the crew of STUART TANK WD No. 271158. When last seen he was engaged upon a Recce Patrol.

    3. The names of other members of the crew of the vehicle in which travelling (whether surviving or dead), are as follows:-
    2697304 Guardsman H. MALCOLM (Missing believed POW)
    2701570 Guardsman G. LAMOND (Missing believed POW)
    14226211 Guardsman J. HILL (Missing believed POW)


    4. The following personnel who are believed also to be missing or prisoner of war are thought to have been with him.
    2697304 Guardsman H. MALCOLM ) Known to be with him in the Tank.
    2701570 Guardsman G. LAMOND ) Not known if any were wounded.
    14226211 Guardsman J. HILL ) NOT SERVING WITH UNIT NOW

    5. He was in the following circumstances of danger - Unknown.
    His condition when last seen was as follows - He and remainder of his tank were O.K.

    6. It is considered he should be regarded as POW for the following reasons:-
    (i) No evidence of dead in area near tank
    (ii) Several civilians reported that they saw the whole crew being marched off by the Germans after their tank had been knocked out.

    7. Statements of three witnesses attached.

    Date: 8th January 1945


    STATEMENT BY P/132522 Captain D.M. GRAY, 6th Battalion ROYAL SCOTS FUSILIERS

    When I occupied the position at Map Ref: 759102 on 20th November 1944, a HONEY TANK with one track broken was there.

    There were no signs of wounded or dead own troops.

    When we drove the enemy out of the next farm house on the left of the road we found some articles of British equipment.

    Civilians reported that the tank crew had been taken prisoner.

    Signed and dated 16th December 1944


    STATEMENT BY 2696566 Sergeant R. THOMSON

    On the 20th November, 1944, I took out a patrol, the patrol consisting of my own crew plus Lance-Sergeant FENTON’s crew which consisted of Guardsman MALCOLM, Guardsman HILL and Guardsman LAMOND.

    At about 1400 hours in the area NEDERWLERT Map Ref 7609 1/22000 when on my return to the unit, I last saw Lance-Sergeant FENTON’s tank. He was under no difficulties and was following on behind me.

    On reaching the unit area I discovered he was not with me. I called him on the wireless and received a weak answer. I called him again several times and received no answer.

    Signed and dated 12th December 1944.


    STATEMENT BY Captain H. NEVILE

    On 20th November, 1944, I sent out a patrol consisting of Sergeant THOMSON and Lance-Sergeant FENTON to investigate the woods and area of Map Reference 7610 and 7710, 1/25000 NEDERWLERT. I had had reports over the wireless from the patrol during the time they were out.

    Sergeant THOMPSON returned and told me that Lance-Sergeant FENTON was following but since he did not appear and we could not get him on the wireless I put out a search party. They found nothing.

    Next day we had reports from the Infantry that they had found the Tank and they reported that the civilians nearby had seen the crew being taken prisoner and that they were being badly treated. The Infantry seemed to regard this information as fairly reliable.

    Signed and dated 12th December 1944.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From WO 361/613 MISSING PERSONNEL REPORTS SCOTS GUARDS, NWE.

    The undermentioned personnel who are reported as “Missing” are so reported in the following circumstances. They were:-
    2697719 Paid Lance-Corporal D. SUTHERLAND - Driver
    2701138 Guardsman I. WALLACE - Gunner
    2697876 Guardsman H. THOMPSON - Co-Driver
    2698814 Guardsman T. McINTYRE - Operator

    They were the crew of the tank “TAY” of which 2696468 Serjeant J. BIRSS, was the commander. On 6th August 1944, during the attack on the crossroads at ESTRY, this tank was seen to go forward through a hedgerow to engage a PANTHER tank which had just knocked out a tank of the troop in front. The tank was seen to swing off to the left away from the main axis of the attack and into the middle of a cluster of German machine gun nests. Nothing more was heard of seen of the tank as the direction of the attack swung off to the right, but a fire was seen later in the place where the tank had been last seen.

    It was impossible to get to the place until the 14th August owing to the presence of the enemy. The tank was then found burnt out and holed through the front plate by a large projectile. Serjeant BIRSS was found and indentified dead on the ground some 5 yards from the tank. Two charred and unrecognisable or identifiable bodies were found in the turret which in all probability, were Guardsman WALLACE and Guardsman McINTRYE, the gunner and operator. Of Lance-Corporal SUTHERLAND and Guardsman THOMPSON, the driver and co-driver, no trace could be found. The tank had obviously been looted by the enemy as kit belonging to the tank was strewn all around. A blood-stained gaiter, a boot and two stretcher slings were found outside the tank. A little hut, but the other side of the hedge against which the tank was stopped, contained a tank first aid kit which had been opened and used. This coupled with the fact that the pannier doors were open give rise to the supposition that Lance-Corporal SUTHERLAND and Guardsman THOMPSON may have escaped, though wounded and possibly been made prisoners.

    Signed Captain BALFOUR, Second-in-Command, Left Flank, 3rd Tank Battalion SCOTS GUARDS.
    17th August 1944.


    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    Serjeant JAMES BIRSS 2696468, Scots Guards who died age 23 on 06 August 1944

    Son of James Davidson Birss and Jane Birss, of Glasgow; husband of Margaret Galbraith Birss, of Sandyhills, Glasgow.

    Remembered with honour BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY
    Grave/Memorial Reference: XX. D. 17.

    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    Guardsman IRVING RAE WALLACE 2701138, Scots Guards who died age 20 on 06 August 1944

    Son of Nathaniel and Agnes Wallace, of Kirkpatrick Fleming, Dumfriesshire.
    
Remembered with honour HOTTOT-LES-BAGUES WAR CEMETERY
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Joint grave XII. E. 6-7.

    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    Guardsman THOMAS GILMOUR McINTYRE 2698814, Scots Guards who died age 33 on 06 August 1944
    
Son of Isabella McIntyre, of Glasgow.
    
Remembered with honour HOTTOT-LES-BAGUES WAR CEMETERY
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Joint grave XII. E. 6-7.

    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    Lance Corporal DONALD SUTHERLAND 2697719, 3rd Bn., Scots Guards who died age 27 on 07 August 1944
    
Son of Robert Taylor Sutherland, and of Rebecca L. Sutherland, of Rutherglen, Lanarkshire.

    Remembered with honour ST. DESIR WAR CEMETERY
    Grave/Memorial Reference: II. E. 12.

    CWGC :: Casualty Details
    Guardsman HERBERT WILLIAM THOMPSON 2697876, Scots Guards who died age 24 on 25 August 1944
    
Son of William and Mary Gertrude Thompson, of West End, Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire.

    Remembered with honour VIROFLAY NEW COMMUNAL CEMETERY
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Row B. Grave 8.

    :poppy:
    Nemo me impune lacessit
    _____
    1 crew: 5 men, 4 different cemeteries, 3 different dates for death, 2 who died of their wounds.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    From WO 361/613 MISSING PERSONNEL REPORTS SCOTS GUARDS, NWE.

    Diane,

    A couple of interesting an useful points in this and your next post.

    I checked the Stuart serial number and it is a M5A1, Stuart VI. I had all the Recce Stuarts down as M3A3's.

    I don't have "Tay" listed at all with 3rd Scots. I know that in some regiments when a tank is knocked out and crew killed it is deemed bad luck to use the same name but add I, II or III after it. However with the number of tank losses this is a bit of a puzzle as I have not seen 3rd Scots tanks with I, II etc but then again I have not seen other names associated to them.

    A couple of updates anyway.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks for the explanation Kevin.
    For your records, have added the relevant images to the previous posts.
    There is a bit more relating to the 3SG Missing in that file, but doubtful that there is anything further relating to the vehicles themselves. Will add in due course.
     
  20. FINDLAY

    FINDLAY Member

    Scots Guards (3rd Battalion) 1st action in Normandy: first of the battalion to be killed L.Sgt John Louden (tank commander) killed by a sniper (S squadron). Interred at Hottot les Bagues. as the battle was ongoing, and with his body slumped in the turret, the tank was taken over by Tom Scott, who had a twin brother Walter Scott who died during the attack south from Caumont, I suspect it was on hill 226. 3 tanks in 8 troop, Skye,Barra and Uist. Skye with Lt Hickling was the troop commander. Sgt Robertson was the commander of one of the other tanks; the third tank I think was commanded by John Louden, but I will try to confirm this. Lt Hickling was later moved to HQ's squadron with Lt Gilpin replacing him in Skye tank. Lt Gilpin commanding the troop till VE day. Lt Gilpin died 23 months ago at his home in Somerset. Skye tank was one of those that was knocked out on hill 226, the co-driver/hull gunner, John Willie Harvey died in this action and is buried at Hottot les Bagues. He was replaced by Archie Garland and the crew survived intact till VE day, then split up. Archie Garland won a Croix de Guerre in Belgium/Holland?. Archie died 2 1/2 years ago in Frome. Not sure if the driver (Robertson) and the radio operator (Sloan?) are still alive. Source of info: my Father, Peter Muir Findlay (2701168); alive and well today and living in Swindon.
     

Share This Page