Account: 3rd Tank Bn Scots Guards, Jul 1944 - May 1945

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by dbf, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. fozman

    fozman Member

    No problem... given all of the transcriptions that you've done, it's the least that I could do!

    In 2012 I will be completing the revision of the small booklet that I pulled together regarding Hill 226 which includes photos of all of the grave markers in the cemetaries that the casualties are buried in & will make available as a download... It was originally put together to support the miniature wargame that we run based on the battle; I'm also delivering a talk to our local military history group on the battle in the New Year - it was originally intended to be in February, but is now being rescheduled.

    Also, thoroughly enjoyed the posting that you did of the BAOR Battlefield Tour... am thinking of buying, myself. 'though I was slightly disappointed to find that it doesn't cover much of 11th AD, just a brief overview from "Pip" Roberts...
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Another member said as much about lack of 11 Armd too. I suppose given the format, a tour with all the restrictions that imposes, some details will be sacrificed. I found the inclusion of the personal accounts of Bluecoat a nice touch though.

    Looking forward to your report being made available.

    I hope the two of you continue to contribute as often as you can to matters 3 Tk SG at very least. What you have both posted so far is very helpful and informative and shows a detailed understanding of the unit; as a result, requests for help from new members will surely follow in the coming year. :)
     
  3. fozman

    fozman Member

    I'm planning to be back in Normandy in June 2012 to further my other research project (Men in the Shed - Allied Prisoners of War in Normandy) but also want to do a more detailed recce of a couple of battles... EPSOM & also, armed with the wonderful stuff that you've posted, BLUECOAT... I've walked parts before, but not with resources as detailed...

    Thinking back to the BAOR tour... how large are the maps... they appear to fold out & so I was wondering... I have the modern IGN ones, but having the originals to tie in with Grid Refs makes things easier to follow, I suspect
     
  4. fozman

    fozman Member

    Eain,
    Possible long shot (& you may have already thought of this) but have you tried Forces Reunited for Archie McAllister? Or perhaps via Royal British Legion, SSAFFA or Normandy Veterans Association?
     
  5. FINDLAY

    FINDLAY Member

    Eain,
    Possible long shot (& you may have already thought of this) but have you tried Forces Reunited for Archie McAllister? Or perhaps via Royal British Legion, SSAFFA or Normandy Veterans Association?



    Thanks Colin for the info and reminders, I will try these in the next few days. God willing, Dad and myself will be over in Normandy next June, so meet up at St Charles/Montchamp?
     
  6. fozman

    fozman Member

    We're hoping to be there for that, too, so would be great to meet again.
     
  7. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I found your booklet online and copied the War Diary extract from it just after my last post here.
    The interesting thing for me was the Guards claiming they were attacked by Tigers (the default ID of all german tanks)rather than the (then) unknown Jagdpanther.
     
  8. 6thgtb

    6thgtb Junior Member

    Hello all,

    I'm new to the forum so apologies if my netiquette isn't quite right! My grandad was in 3 Scots Guards, Right-Flank, No. 3 Troop, Tank commander of "Elgin". I created the 6th Guards Tank Brigade website:

    6thguardstankbrigade

    I've been trying to obtain as many names of crews as possible, and which tank they served in, from people who have contacted me. I will post them when I get chance. I've also scoured the IWM footage for tank names and found the following:

    Buffalo (4 CG, No. 2 Sq, No.6 Troop) on A70 304/7-9 at 1:48
    Bandit (4 CG, No. 3 Sq, No.11 Troop) on A70 304/7-9 at 1:29
    Bulldog (4 CG, No. 3 Sq, No.11 Troop) on A70 304/7-9 at 7:23
    Lynx (4 CG, No. 2 Sq, No.9 Troop) on A70 288/1-2 at 6:08
    Spey (3 SG, LF Sq, No.14 Troop) on A70 244 at 2:04

    Cheers
    Dave
     
    dbf and stolpi like this.
  9. fozman

    fozman Member

    From what I can gather tank recognition wasn't a good strength!
    Could you remind me where you found booklet so that I can replace with new version once complete?
     
  10. fozman

    fozman Member

    Dave,
    Welcome to the thread.
    There's some information earlier on in but anything that you can add will be welcomed
    Cheers
    Colin
     
  11. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hello Dave,

    I posted a listing of all the 6th Guards Tank Brigade names earlier in this thread. Thanks for the IWM references but I have a question regarding them. In the clips are any of the census numbers shown? It would be nice to be able to put a few more numbers to names or vice versa.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  12. 6thgtb

    6thgtb Junior Member

    Hi Kevin,

    I'm trying to match up the names of the crews to the tank names (I've got names of partial crews for 15ish tanks) - I'll add them to your excellent Excel sheet when I get chance and post it.

    I'm not sure what you mean by census numbers - sorry, I'm not ex-military or a military/tank expert/historian!

    Cheers
    Dave
     
  13. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member


    Hi Dave,

    All vehicles are issued with a census number. Each is prefixed with a letter which denotes the type of vehicle it is.
    A Ambulances
    C Motorcycles
    F Armoured and Scout cars
    H Tractors ( inc. Breakdowns )
    L Trucks 1 – ton and over
    M Cars ( inc. Light Utilities )
    P Amphibians
    S SP mountings
    T Carriers, Tanks
    V Vans ( RASC )
    X Trailers of all types
    Z Trucks under 1 – ton

    So as an example for some of the Guards Tanks:-

    3rd Scots Churchill Tanks
    BEN NEVIS has the census number T173143/H
    CAIRNGORM has the census number T68964

    4th Coldstream Churchill Tanks
    EAGLE has the census number T252118/K
    MINOTAUR has the census number T68425

    4th Grenadier Churchill Tanks
    FELTHAM has the census number T172603/B
    SHREWSBURY has the census number T172634

    It would be nice to add some more numbers to the names on the spreadsheet. Anything you find is appreciated.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  14. 6thgtb

    6thgtb Junior Member

    Hi Kevin,

    Cheers for that useful info, I'll have a look for census numbers. I've attached the excel sheet with a few updates in yellow - feel free to reformat as you see fit.

    Happy New Year!

    Dave
     

    Attached Files:

  15. 0.303

    0.303 Junior Member

    Hi

    Have a photo of a Churchill tank with the number T 172846 B on it. Can't see any other numbers or a name on the tank. What unit would that one be?

    .303
     
  16. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Fascinating post thank you Diane. Estry most certainly wasn't 'clear of enemy'. I've posted elsewhere on the forum but my dad was involved in an attack on Estry a few days later, on the 8th August I think - perhaps the one to which the war diary above refers, but all the squadron's (77 Assault Squadron ARE) AVRE's were damaged by HE and they had seven OR missing, 11 wounded which eventually translated into 7 dead. Amongst my dad's scattered recollections were the church tower being fired on as it had artillery observers in, a Tiger tank (I know everyone saw Tigers) in the churchyard and the burial of the crew of a tank who had been shot after they'd baled out, which everyone assumed was the work of the SS. They never got into Estry and although he recalled everyone being amused at sappers being sent in to help the (Grenadier) Guards it didn't sound any fun whatsoever and that mood soon evaporated.
     
  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Brian might be of interest,
    One of my father's recollection which turned out to be 8 Aug -
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/35331-mystery-british-casualty-smith-smyth-scottish-regiment-normandy.html

    and mentions of Estry in Irish Guards war diaries:

    3IG WD:
    1944 August Monday 7 MONTCHAMP During the night 6/7th, excellent work was done by the Pioneer PL, commanded by Cap. D.E. COMPTON, in clearing MONTCHAMP of mines and booby traps. No. 1 Coy cleared the village while the Carrier Pl distinguished themselves on patrols at the entrances. The Bn was ordered to secure the area between MONTCHAMP and ESTRY for a gun area for 15 (S) Div. No 1 Coy proceeded through MONTCHAMP to PONT a L’ECRIVAIN. X Coy passed through No 1 Coy to the area of Les ECOUBLET. These Coys met no opposition, except road blocks which were booby trapped. No 1 Coy later moved up to the right of X Coy, and Bn HQ, Nos 2 and 4 Coys moved into the area of PONT a L’ECRIVAIN. The whole Bn area was subject to sporadic mortar fire, and also to several “overs” of S.A. fire, but fortunately there were only a few casualties.

    1944 August Tuesday 8 SOUTH of MONTCHAMP The Bn held its positions throughout today - there was again mortar fire and S.A. “overs” which killed three men and wounded seven others. In the morning, a Bn of K.OSB. and a Bn of R.S.F. put in a frontal attack on ESTRY through our positions, but this was only partially successful.

    1944 August Wednesday 9 SOUTH of MONTCHAMP During the morning the Bn was told to stand by ready to move to take over a new position at SOURDEVALLE 7033, at present held by a composite Bn of MONMOUTHS and NORFOLKS of 11 Armd Div. 1200 The Commanding Officer, accompanied by Coy Commanders, tank representative of 1 Armd COLDM GDS and Arty F.O.O. went to SOURDEVALLE to recce the new positions - a task made difficult owing to heavy shell fire and close range S.A. fire. This position was in the tip of a salient created by 11 Armd Div. The recce party did not return until 1900 hrs, and all through the day the whole Bn area had again been subjected to sporadic mortar fire and S.A. “overs” - casualties suffered being three ORs wounded. 2100 Eventually the Bn completed the hand-over to a Bn of ROYAL SCOTS, and commenced the move to SOURDEVALLE. The marching personnel embussed in T.C.Ls at MONTCHAMP - nobody was looking forward to the journey as any dust on the roads was bound to bring down a lot of shelling. 1 (Armd) COLDM GDS were to move into the new position just before dark, and the Bn after dark. We only took the minimum number of vehicles into the position as the previous unit had lost an enormous amount of transport by taking it right forward - this fact was only too evident when one saw the graveyard of brewed-up vehicles in the area of Bn HQ. Our transport was divided into three groups - the actual vehicles we needed with us, confined to Jeeps, Carriers, rear link vehicle and the C.O.’s Scout Car. Secondly, those vehicles necessary to maintain the Bn in battle, such as petrol, amn, signal stores and Int. stores, and lastly the remainder of the Bn vehicles, 3 tonners and 15 cwts and T.C.Ls. Those three echelons were known respectively as F, F2 and A.

    1944 August Thursday 10 SOURDEVALLE The Bn took over this new position without incident and the take-over was completed by 0200 hours. All through the day the whole Bn area was subjected to shelling and mortaring and during this time, Capt. D.G. KINGSFORD (No 1 Coy Comd) was killed by a shell splinter, Capt. D.E. COMPTON was wounded and 17 ORs wounded. In the early evening, the two forward Coys - No. 1 (now commanded by Lt. P. DOYLE) and No. 4, were attacked by what was thought to be a recce force in strength - this was easily repulsed and the attack petered out, but unfortunately no identifications were obtained, although we inflicted several casualties on the enemy, but it was impossible to go forward in the daylight to search bodies. This was attempted after dark by the Intelligence Section and several dead Germans were found in the standing corn immediately in front of Nos 1 and 4 Coys, but the search still did not reveal an identification so urgently required by higher formation. In the evening, orders were received that the Bn would attack the next day, and as a preliminary to this, a strong patrol from No 4 Coy, led by Lt. KINGAN, was sent to recce the bridge and river by 1a JARRIERRE immediately to the SOUTH of SOURDEVALLE. They discovered the bridge to be strongly held, but no identifications could be obtained, and it was impossible to get across the bridge to the houses on the other side.

    1944 August Friday 11 SOURDEVALLE Again this morning the forward coys were attacked by an enemy force - thought to be on recce - but were easily repulsed by S.A. fire. 0900 The Bn, supported by a sqn of tks of 1 (Armd) COLDM GDS and one Fd Bty carried out an attack to gain the line of the main VIRE-VASSY road SOUTH of SOURDEVALLE, being phased in with the remainder of the 32 Gds Bde directed on the village of CHENODELLE, and in concert with 1 MOT. GREN GDS and 2 (Armd) GREN GDS directed on the village of VIESSOIX. We were in the centre of a Div effort directed Southwards. The leading Coys, right - 2 Coy and left - 4 Coy, were supported by two troops of tanks, medium mortars and a Field Bty RA, came under intense fire on a convex slope running Southwards, as soon as they crossed the Start Line. The leading tks immediately suffered casualties from enemy A.Tk guns or dung in tanks SOUTH of their objective. The forward coys pushed on through root and cornfields, suffering very heavy casualties before they reached their objective at approximately 400 yds NORTH of their objectives. The enemy then crumpled heavily with arty and mortar fire on the forward slope of the hill down which the attack had been directed and at 1600 hours a contact patrol was sent forward to (a) locate the centres of enemy resistance, and (b) inform all possible survivors that they were to withdraw to the line of the F.D.Ls as soon as a smoke screen was laid to cover them. This contact patrol was led by Lt. A.N. DREWE of X Coy, who was himself wounded, one man of the patrol killed and another man wounded. 1630 The smoke screen was laid, duration 30 mins, and Lt. DREWE with stretcher bearers, again went forward into the smoke and did all he could in supervising evacuation of all possible wounded. Very heavy casualties were suffered by 2 and 4 Coys. Officers killed were Major A. EARLEY-WILMOT (2 Coy Comd), Lt. LORD FITZMAURICE (4 Coy) and Lt. P. BOURKE (2 Coy) and Major D.A. REID (4 Coy Comd), Lt. KINGAN (4 Coy) and Lt. RYDER (2 Coy) were all wounded. ORs suffered to the extent of 33 killed and 72 wounded. The men were splendid, advancing in spite of the severe opposition, and nothing further could be done to support them owing to the proximity of the opposing posts, and the fact that the bulk of the fire power had to be retained for the 32 GDS BDE attack on CHENODELLE. In the evening, the remnants of 2 and 4 Coys were successfully withdrawn to the reserve Coy area and their original positions were taken over by Nos 1 and X Coys. Nos 2 and 4 Coys were amalgamated into one coy, now known as No 2, under the command of Capt. HENDRY.

    1944 August Saturday 12 SOURDEVALLE An unfortunate accident during the night in X Coy position, when T mines were being fused, resulted in three men being killed and one wounded. A quiet day - patrols were sent out and were able to collect and bury the dead. Identifications of enemy on our front confirmed that we had been fighting elements of the combined 3 and 5 Para Divs and not 10 SS Pz Div “HOHENSTAUFEN” as had been expected.

    1944 August Sunday 13 SOURDEVALLE Orders were received for the Bn to move to the area of Le BUSQ a mile due WEST of ESTRY, and quite near the position we had held previously. The Commanding Officer spent most of the day receiving the new position. We were to be relieved at SOURDEVALLE by 2 HCRA supported by 2 (Armd) IG and their Commanding Officers spent most of the day in our Bn position recceing and taking over. 2100 The hand over was completed and the Bn left SOURDEVALLE - the move to Le BUSQ was completed without incident apart from an unsuccessful air attack.

    1944 August Monday 14 LE BUSQ This day was spent in resting, re-fitting and bathing, although the enemy were still less than one mile away. The Bn still consists of only three rifle Coys, but a Fd Sqn RE is under command in the role of reserve coy. Patrols during the night kept contact with flanking units and information was received that the nearest enemy locality - ESTRY was now clear.


    2 Armd IG WD:
    5 August 1944 A much quieter day.
    Two enemy half tracks drove in the gate and were promptly “put in the bag”. One of the crew taken prisoner complained that they had orders to return to ESTRY and had met us unexpectedly on the way. He came from 19 SS Pz G.R. of 9 SS Pz Div. which had been our enemy the past 2 days, and according to him had suffered very heavy casualties.
    1 Mot GREN GDS did a sweep from pt 176 Southwards. As we told them before they started the enemy had gone and they swept empty fields.
    The Divisional Commander visited the Bn and congratulated all ranks on their efforts and exertions of the past three days. He said he was quite confident we would hold the ground we had won. The remainder of the day was passed in washing, eating and sleeping. Some shot were exchanged with the enemy, but no damage suffered by us.
    Patrols reported that the enemy was withdrawing from MONTCHAMP towards ESTRY. A few men still held LE BUSQ.

    6 August 1944
    The 5th Bn COLDM GDS supported by No. 3 Sqn advanced to LE BUSQ meeting little opposition except some mortars and MGs. As soon as they begun digging in however, heavy and accurate shelling and mortaring began, which caused them some casualties. A burnt out PANTHER was found in LE BUSQ, abandoned by the Germans after considerable efforts to recover it. It must have been hit by No. 3 Sqn in their first battle 3 days before when numerous claims of hits and “brewing ups” of enemy tanks were made. So at least we had a second victim to offset our losses.
    Major N.S.P. WHITEFOORD, M.C. was unluckily hit by a sniper just above the knee and had to be evacuated. Capt. M.J.P. O’COCK took over command of No. 3 Sqn.
    Lt. F.J.P. McCORKELL’s and 3 of his crew were killed when a mortar bomb landed on top of his tank - the one unlucky chance in a thousand.
    The Bn harboured in the same area as before. No. 2 Sqn relieved No. 3 Sqn and stayed out in the Coy positions of 5 COLDM GDS.

    7 August 1944
    The Sqns moved out to their day positions and lay up camouflaged.
    Heavy mortaring on 5 COLDM GDS area wounded Major J.W.R. MADDEN and Capt. J.R. DUPREE with the same salvo. Major J.W.R. MADDEN lost a leg later as a result. Capt. E.G. TYLER then took over No. 2 Sqn and was promoted to Major, and Capt. J.V.D. TAYLOR became 2IC. Urgent demands were made by the Commanding Officer for more officers. Brigade HQ promised that reinforcements were being flown with all speed, as the difficult position of our and other Battalions was fully recognised.

    8 August 1944
    Except for the usual shelling, a quiet day.
    Lt. D.B. LIDDLE (No. 3 Sqn) was killed by an odd shell, the second officer lost through sheer bad luck.
    The 15 (S) Div on our left attacked ESTRY, but unsuccessfully. No. 2 Sqn spotted some infantry working round their left flank and had a good Squadron shoot. No more movement was seen in that area.
    Capt. P. STOBART was slightly wounded by the enemy “Stonk” and had to be evacuated. Lt. W.E. DODD became 2IC of No. 3 Sqn.
     
  18. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

  19. FINDLAY

    FINDLAY Member

    Happy New Year folks.

    I have posted, if in a disjointed way, the crew names to tanks and function;

    Would it be possible for others who have listings do likewise here? I would like to anotate my 6th Guards book with names (of crew) to tanks, before all this info is lost for good.
     
  20. FINDLAY

    FINDLAY Member

    Whilst at Valkenburg at Christmas 1944, the men of 3 S.G put on a Christmas party for the local children. It took place in a large mansion house type residence, which the officers were billited in whilst in the town.
    The fare was mainly rations from the tank men's '15 man pack'....I believe this was the terminology used for the ration packs issued to the tank crew.

    Soups from the 'self heating' cans, 'rolled' bacon from the tins they were supplied with, along with tinned fruit and chocolate; My Father said the children thoroughly enjoyed themselves, with fruit and chocolate scarce in occupied Holland.
     

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