After Dunkirk over 50% senior commanders were removed?

Discussion in '1940' started by davidbfpo, Mar 16, 2022.

  1. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    In a wider commentary by an ex-British Army officer on the Ukraine and world order is this striking phrase, hence my bold:
    Link: The task ahead: from an ugly present to a better future | TheArticle

    I have a recollection from a talk given by Peter Caddick-Adams many years ago that large numbers of officers, at all command levels, were removed; some on health grounds, having collapsed from exhaustion and nerves. Other having been found to be unsuitable for modern blitzkreig warfare.

    My focus is not on 1940, so I would be interested in the reaction here. Did this purging happen? Was it as large as 'over 50%' of senior commanders? Prging at regimental level too.

    Apologies if this topic has appeared before.
     
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  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    At the Regimental level, when the 24th Lancers was formed in December 1940 it was initially made up of Officers, NCO's and men taken from the 9th Lancers and the 17th/21st Lancers.

    A while back I tried to see what criteria was used in the selection of those who left the 9th Lancers and the 17th/21st Lancers in order to help form the 24th L.

    In the case of some they were able to take promotion in the move to their new roles, due to the expansion of the army etc. Whereas had they stayed where they were the chances of promotion - at that point - perhaps would have been more limited.

    I hadn't really thought to see whether any 9th Lancers had been "purged" after the Fall of France. Or even whether it was mentioned much.

    The "Bright" book covers this period of the 9th Lancers (Ref. Regimental-Histories_1936-1945 Bright_0001.jpg - The Royal Lancers Museum at Derby )

    And there is a Regimental history of the 17th/21st Lancers (Ref. Death or Glory )

    Rm.

    Specifics - Regimental-Histories_1936-1945 Bright_0065.jpg - The Royal Lancers Museum at Derby

    And - Death or Glory

    With... "November and December heralded considerable disruption upon the formation of the 24th Lancers, whose backbone was drawn from the 17th/21st and 9th Lancers."
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
  4. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    I can believe it , Monty in particular was ruthless.
    Many went due to age.

    Craig
     
  5. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I have been reminded that Jim Storr has written on the theme in 'The Human Face of War', published 2009 and in simple terms, of the divisional and higher-level commanders 1/3 went on, 1/3 went nowhere and 1/3 disappeared from sight. The 'third who went on' were people such as Montgomery, Alexander, Brooke and one or two more.

    Some of his data can be seen using Google Books, searching with sacked. Via: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Human_Face_of_War/8Zwt8AslGKIC?hl=en&gbpv=1
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2022
  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Not getting a field command does not necessarily mean failure. Would we have been better off with Brooke in the field instead of Churchill's ear?
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    "Purged" is quite an emotive term...there were certainly a lot of movements...Gort of course was moved aside. Of the three corps Commanders, Barker of 1 Corps did badly and was replaced by Alexander while still in France. Brooke of 2 Corps took on Home Forces and then went on to become CIGS, and Adam from 3 Corps became Adjutant General by 1941. Were those they replaced "purged" or had their time to go arrived anyway ?

    The army was expanding...without knowing all the politics, it's difficult to say in many cases just who was purged, who was promoted, or who was simply moved where the army needed him.
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I guess too where the army needed them... can vary a lot depending on whosoever was making decisions at any one time...

    Percy Hobart - Wikipedia

    Second World War
    General Sir Archibald Wavell dismissed Hobart into retirement in 1940, based on hostile War Office information due to his "unconventional" ideas about armoured warfare. Hobart joined the Local Defence Volunteers (precursor to the Home Guard) as a lance corporal and was charged with the defence of his home town, Chipping Campden. "At once, Chipping Campden became a hedgehog of bristling defiance", and Hobart was promoted to become Deputy Area Organiser. Liddell Hart criticised the decision to retire Hobart and wrote an article in the newspaper Sunday Pictorial. Winston Churchill was notified and he had Hobart recalled into the army in 1941. Hobart was assigned to train the 11th Armoured Division, a task which was recognised as extremely successfully achieved.
    Hobart's detractors tried again to have him removed, this time on medical grounds but Churchill rebuffed them. He was relatively old (57) for active command and he had been ill. Once again, Hobart was assigned to raise and train a fresh armoured division, this time the 79th Armoured Division.
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Hobart was also Montgomery's brother in law which may have formed a pathway to resume a military career but I would not be critical about that being aware of what Hobart had to offer.

    It has to be said that purges are a regular feature in any organisation, be it in account of failure, restructuring or the appointment of new leadership whose relationship with individuals concerned has been less than cordial.

    Post Dunkirk there must have been some deep assessment of individual military commanders, some perhaps still having not moved forward from the battles that were fought in the Great War.

    Thinking about those in prominent positions who were cast aside, there is the case of Ironside, the CIGS who was removed from his appointment in the summer of 1940 and not really employed again save for a few months as C in C Home Defence.

    One of the most irrational decisions was that to remove Dowding from C in C Fighter Command after the B of B had been won, no doubt arising from bickering and division at the top.

    Digressing, Stalin's purge of the Red Army in 1937 was mainly motivated to further consolidate his power and eliminate any individual or group who he was suspicious of and thought had the potential to threaten his power.
     
  10. Kiwi REd One

    Kiwi REd One Junior Member

    Most of the Senior British commanders still in the field in France after Dunkirk don't seem to have held further battlefield commands during WW2, though overall they did pretty well given the mish-mash of troops under their command and the steadily deteration of the political and military situation leading up to the 1940 Armistice.

    Of the General officers involved only Alanbrooke seems to have gone on to higher commands later in the war.

    Major General Victor Fortune, commander of the 51st Highland Division was captured along with part of his division and the rest of the French IX Corps at St Valery sur Caux in June 1940 and was the senior British POW held by the Germans till April 1945. He retired shortly after his release.

    Major General Roger Evans, commander of the 1st Armoured Division, returned to England in June 1940 and was appointed commander of the Aldershot Area 1941-43 before retiring in 1944. His two Brigade commanders did see further service however. Richard McCreery went on to command the 8th Army in Italy in 1944/45 while John Crocker commanded 1 Corps in France in 1944.

    Brigadier (Acting Major General) AB Beauman, commander of the ad-hoc Beauman Division, returned to England in 1940 was appointed commander of various home commands before retiring in 1944.

    Major General Philip de Fonblanque, Commanding the BEF's Lines of Communication Area passed away shortly after his return to the UK in 1940, due to an existing illness on top of his command responsibilities in France.
     
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  11. Osborne2

    Osborne2 Well-Known Member

    Have a look at Brooke's own book, War Diaries. When he became Cin C Home Forces I think you will find he set about removing some regional commanders for adhering to Ironside's concept of stick all your defenders into a coastal strip a la Atlantic Wall or Maginot Line, instead of wholeheartedly adopting a light coastal defence with mobile forces held back a little inland to react to any landing and crush it with concentrated force. Brooke had much to do with the reshaping of the army.
    Hobart's career was killed off in Egypt by the poison of General Sir Robert Gordon-Finlayson, who did not want him there from day one, probably because of Hobart's personal life.G-F was stood down in 1941.
     
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  12. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    I was challenged, as part of my PhD research on Brigadiers in France and Norway in 1940, to sustain the contention that there had been a massive purge of officers "at Colonel and above" after Dunkirk; this is not sustainable. There is no evidence of a planned or systematic "purge". Some generals past retirement were shifted sideways to dead-end jobs to fill gaps; others close to retirement were retired. The percentage of Brigadiers who stayed in service (after all a Brigadier in 1940 was mainly a Colonel promoted to hold a post for a time, and then, if not advanced to Major General, reverted to Colonel) was higher than you may think. At least one Brigadier advanced to Major General after Dunkirk was rapidly dismissed by Montgomery, who thought him incompetent - but he had a job for the rest of the war.
     
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  13. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I had read a thesis along those lines somewhere on the internet...was it yours? If so I'd like to read it again, good work.
     
  14. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Phil,
    Thanks I too would like to read that thesis / chapter in a thesis.
     
  15. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    Depends when you read it! I am turning it into a book as we speak.
     
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