Alanbrooke. The British Commander most neglected by History?

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by von Poop, Oct 16, 2010.

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  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Often seems that way to me.
    Should his light shine a little brighter?
    Or is it a natural reflection of the modest man he apparently was?

    [​IMG]

    ~A
     
    von Poop, Oct 16, 2010
    #1
  2. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    I'll go one better and suggest that the *real* forgotten man is General Sir Ronald Forbes Adam, Brookes' Adjutant-General. Historians don't consider organization and administration particularly sexy topics of analysis, but it's arguable that Adam had a far greater influence over the British Army's evolution during WWII than any theatre-level general ever did.

    Best, Alan
     
    Alan Allport, Oct 16, 2010
    #2
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Good stuff Allan.
    I'm only even aware of Forbes Adam through his mentions in Alanbrooke's Diaries.
    There's a whole layer of these chaps that are largely ignored because they weren't at the specifically 'combat' end. I feel their political/logistics/strategic battles were just as, or maybe even more, significant than the men on the ground, but there's little conventional glamour so History often passes them by.

    Any more neglected Staff officers people can think of?
     
    von Poop, Oct 16, 2010
    #3
  4. Some Chicken

    Some Chicken Member

    I should imagine Alanbrooke's name is almost totally unknown to the British public at large. A travesty, but hardly surprising in a country where a significant proportion of young people believe Churchill to be a dog who sells car insurance.

    Alanbrooke was the prime architect of British strategy for most of the Second World War and his contribution was immense. By all accounts he was actually a forceful personality. When Churchill decided Auchinleck had to be replaced, Alanbrooke somewhat reluctantly turned down command in the middle east, believing he could better serve the war effort by remaining as CIGS. He records in his diary that Churchill twice offered him the job of supreme allied commander for the Nomandy landings but political considerations got in the way. Alanbrooke undoubtedly had far better military credentials than Eisenhower and had he been given command in NWE, Alanbrooke's ability and stature would have gained the recognition they deserved.
     
    Some Chicken, Oct 16, 2010
    #4
  5. Some Chicken

    Some Chicken Member

    Any more neglected Staff officers people can think of?

    Freddie de Guingand for one
     
    Some Chicken, Oct 16, 2010
    #5
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Lord Gort for me - But I would say that wouldn't I ;)

    Without checking, wasn't Adam's placed in command of the BEF from being I Corps commander when Gort left France but Montgomery and others persauded Gort to give the job to Alexander because Adams was having or close to a break down?

    If someone else can confirm this it will save me looking through heaps of I Corps files again.
     
    Drew5233, Oct 16, 2010
    #6
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Whenever I've walked past the three statues near parliament with non-ww2-fixated friends; they all know who Monty is, have a vague recollection of Slim, but have never yet recognised Alanbrooke. Even some with a passing WW2 interest don't recognise him - assuming he must have earnt the 'Master of Strategy' engraving from the first war based on the statue's style of dress.
     
    von Poop, Oct 16, 2010
    #7
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    While Ronald Forbes-Adam was a brilliant organiser and did great service even before the war to create great changes in the Army - he was always #2 to Alanbrooke- his decision on learning the fate of the Salerno mutineers did all concerned some hope, after what he called the greatest travesty of British Army Justice..he got that right !

    Drew - no need to look up reams of history - Adams was Commander of III Corps and was responsible for the perimeter around Dunkirk and thus saved the army during that fiasco - far from being close to breakdown.
    Gort handed over to Alanbrooke - then Montgomery and finally Alexander during the fall back to La Panne and Dunkirk

    Both Alanbrooke and Adams(RHA) were Gunners and thus already had an affinity
    and between them reconstituted the British Army from the pre war to the fighting unit it was in 1943-45 - with Alanbrooke creating the successful strategy - against all objectors !

    Cheers
     
    Tom Canning, Oct 16, 2010
    #8
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I can honestly say when I joined this forum I didn't really know who he was .
    I had heard of him before as a 'birdwatching British General' .
    Thanks to Adam , he pestered me into getting Alanbrooke's Diaries, rather glad I did.
    Suddenly this 'invisable man in glasses' appeared in lots of photos I'd never noticed him in before.
    :D
     
    Owen, Oct 16, 2010
    #9
  10. urqh

    urqh Senior Member

    Ill stick with Allenbrooke..No Allenbrooke no Monty..and certainly no Winston in the form we know him...although he did guiltilly...that a word...wanted winnie to leave this mortal earth when he was ill on one occasion...But if we talk of unsung heroes..what about Hobart or even Gubbins..but Im getting operational.
     
    urqh, Oct 16, 2010
    #10
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen
    Next time you are thinking of buying books try "Alanbrooke" by Gen. David Fraser - pub Collins- London ISBN 0 - 00 - 216360 8

    Brookie was not only a great bird watcher but an excellent fisherman- carried his gear all over the place..
    Cheers
     
    Tom Canning, Oct 16, 2010
    #11
  12. urqh

    urqh Senior Member

    What ...you carried his gear???? Id Have told him to wade off mate. No he certainly was a twitterer before tewitter even existed...His way of totally switching off ...As important to him as winning the war.
     
    urqh, Oct 16, 2010
    #12
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Indeed Adams was not the man I was thinking of, a quick check tells me it was Barker who was ordered by Gort to form the rear guard with I Corps but was dropped after Montgomery spoke to Gort and Alexander got the rear guard job after Gort left France.

    Gort did tell Adams to organise the defensive perimeter of Dunkirk which was along the Bergues Furnes canal. However he was never in command of what was left of the BEF in France before or after Gort left. Neither Alanbrook or Montgomery were never in overall command of the BEF in France either.

    For the Record Gort closed down his HQ at 1800hrs on 31st May 1940 at La Panne and handed over command to Alexander after agreeing with him the last day for evacuating his force would be the night of 2nd/3rd June.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
    Drew5233, Oct 16, 2010
    #13
  14. Jaeger

    Jaeger Senior Member

    Irwin?

    The revolutionary who could have transformed the British Army post Dunkirk?

    At the risk of beeing banned, one of the most interesting what if's for me is about the Bartholomew Committe and their report.

    If anyone has access to the raport or a book about it I'll be prepared to offer a kidney and my left testie for it...
     
    Jaeger, Oct 16, 2010
    #14
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew - you may be right as Alanbrooke handed the 2nd corps over to Monty and in turn - he to Alex....
    Cheers
     
    Tom Canning, Oct 17, 2010
    #15
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    So that's some prime Nowegian offal on offer for anyone that may visit the Liddel Hart Centre:
    Papers of Gen Sir William Henry Bartholomew, GCB, CMG, DSO (1877-1962)
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3. Papers relating to the Bartholomew Committee, set up to consider the application of lessons learnt from the operations of the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, 1940.


    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/1 1940 Jun 12

    Notes of a Committee set up to consider the lessons to be learnt from the operations in Flanders, containing detailed eyewitness descriptions of operations of the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, culminating in the evacuation at Dunkirk; a discussion of the communication problems, details of command structures and the organisation of headquarters. 20pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/2 [1940 Jun]

    Notes entitled 'Points raised by Lt Gen W[ilfred] G[ordon] Kinsell', on recent operations by the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, 1939-1940, including details of administration, maintenance of supplies, transport, and ammunition. 2pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/3 [1940 Jun]

    Notes entitled 'Criticisms by members of the committee', and consisting of comments by Lt Gen Noel Mackintosh Stuart Irwin upon a draft of the final report on operations of the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, 1939-1940. 2pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/4 [1940 Jun]

    Draft conclusion by Bartholomew on the lessons learned from the operations of the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, 1939-1940. 3pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/5 [1940 Jun]

    Rough notes taken by Bartholomew at a meeting of the Committee, on various including command posts, refugees, and air support. 4pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/6 [1940]

    Paper entitled '3rd Division: points for D(irector) S(taff) D(uties), War Office', and containing instructions for the use of equipment and the employment of arms and troops in the division. 5pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/7 [1940] Jun 14

    Report entitled 'Modification in organisation by Arms', giving the ideal requirements of commanding officers in infantry, field artillery and armoured car regiments regarding the use and employment of arms and troops. 7pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/8 [1940 Jun 14]

    Report entitled 'Summary of points on organisation and training of all arms, 12th-14th June, 1940', including the Royal Artillery, the Royal Engineers, the infantry, as well as details of transport and employment. 10pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/9 [1940 Jun 13]

    Report entitled 'Notes on important points raised 13th June 1940', with regard to the operations of the British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium, 1939-1940, including communications and command, tactics, road movement and traffic control, and modifications in organisation for all branches of the army. 11pp.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/10 [1940 Jun]

    Interim report of the Bartholomew Committee. 8pp. Five copies.
    BARTHOLOMEW: 3/11 [1940 Jun]

    Final report of the Bartholomew Committee. 23pp. Two copies.
     
    von Poop, Oct 17, 2010
    #16
  17. jonwilly

    jonwilly Junior Member

    Alanbrooke handled Winston better then his predecessor Sir John Dill.
    Dill was convinced that Hitler would be in Moscow by end of 41 and that he would then About Turn and Invasion UK 42.
    Dill's constant refusal to release trained formations from the almost thirty Divisions held in UK, for the Mid East and then the coming war in the Far East made Churchill want a new CIGS so Dill had to go.

    john
     
    jonwilly, Oct 17, 2010
    #17
  18. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Or TNA:

    Bartholomew Committee report on lessons to be learnt from operations in Flanders: evidence, report and action arising

    The National Archives | The Catalogue | Full Details | WO 106/1775


    http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/report-bartholomew-committee-lessons-to-be-learnt-from-operations-in-flanders.36330/
     
    sol, Oct 17, 2010
    #18
  19. Jaeger

    Jaeger Senior Member

    Cheers for the links lads.

    The to-do list for the next expedition grow.
     
    Jaeger, Oct 17, 2010
    #19
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sorry to go OT

    Cheers for the links lads.

    The to-do list for the next expedition grow.

    What does that equate to in Pounds Stirling?
     
    Drew5233, Oct 17, 2010
    #20
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