Are these photos to be found in The USA or IWM

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Uncle Target, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    San Clemente Monte Grande Sector
    9th January 1945 Lt Col Flay and Major Kerr went to the Bailey Bridge to meet US General Truscott now OC 5th Army
    to “accidentally” bump into him as he passed, to recall old times at Anzio, for 6 press reporters.

    67th Field Regt RA TA

    The bridge was built by British 1st Div Engineers to dross the River Silaro. The meeting took place three days before the 67th left for Palestine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  2. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

  3. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    That is the modern replacement in the same place as the one in 1944/45. All looks so calm and tranquil
    Gen Lucian Truscott toured the area and took the opportunity to stop off to see the OC and 2 i/c 67th while passing.

    Cant recall what unit your father was in for him to have been there. Was it after 1st Div went to Palestine after 12th Jan 1945. From memory The Skins were to the right of 1st Div. Up the road and around the bend from the bridge in the next valley south of the Ronco.

    Monte Grande with Monte Calderaro behind I think. From the Rovine OP on Monte Calderaro they could view Bologna. Its where Major DCL Shepherd MC Disappeared 10th December 1944.
    Photo of Jeep recovery Courtesy of the Mennell Family Collection German Gun not sure of this location but somewhere in the Calderaro area. Courtesy Shepherd Family Collection.

    Thanks for your posting
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
    bexley84 likes this.
  4. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    My father was 2 LIR with 38 (Irish) Brigade who moved up to the area at the end of November 1944.. my father had come down with pneumonia and had been hospitalised in Alexandria so only got back to the battalion in late December and stayed in the San Clemente area until the end of January 1945.

    Not a very comfortable few weeks in the snow as my father later recalled:
    "I arrived back at E Company on Boxing Day. They were in the line near Monte Grande.

    The conditions were appalling. Mule point was a broken down farmhouse without any heating. Each night, I had to make my way to the company with about a dozen mules. I would climb a precipitous track to the peak where the company was. The last stretch was too much for the mules. They would just lie down. The Italian drivers and I would unload the mules and carry the loads up the slippery steep incline. We would then set about coaxing the mules to their feet and persuading them up the hill. This the Italian drivers did with kicks, curses and prayers to the Blessed Virgin which they often offered on their knees. At the top, we would reload the mules and proceed.

    The terrain was a mixture of mud, snow and ice. ‘It was worse earlier as the mules drowned in mud,’ I was told when I arrived at the front. I would send the mules back and, in pitch darkness, climb down to the road. Here it was even worse. By then, heavy frosts covered the road with black ice and I often had to resort to crawling on all fours. Back at the mule point, I would throw myself on my blankets fully clothed and slept. I should never have returned. I was too weak from my illness. But I was better off than the men on the bleak mountainside.

    There was little enemy activity during my nightly journeys. I believe that the Germans withdrew to the warmth of the valley and the towns, leaving patrols to do the work. Our generals were obsessed with the idea of holding ground, even the bleak mountain peaks. It was a Great World War mentality that was not successful then."

    P1110891 - Copy.JPG
     
    Giberville and Uncle Target like this.
  5. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I have read the History of the Enniskillen's at Clemente on here but have lost the link. I would like to see it again sometime I did much research on Monte Grande beginning with its capture by the American 88th Division. How they ground to a halt and were somewhat unfairly (my opinion) replaced by a much run down 1st Infantry Division which had never fully recovered from Anzio.
    In general all the forces in Italy were much overworked and reduced in manpower once Overlord took hold. It doesn't show up in official records but those of us in possession of letters from those who were, become aware of the scale of the problem. Many of those there were not only under great stress from a determined, prepared and elite enemy force but very unwell and of further reduced strength. The enemy was able to withdraw to the comfort of a warmer clime to shelter, homes, farms, buildings etc .
    If you don't mind I would like to make contact via a PM as I have not visited this storyline for almost two years. My colleagues had to cancel their visit at to the area at much loss due to Covid and have recently suffered from it, in one case quite seriously. All work on our book has been frozen since 2020 and it is questionable if it will restart. I have had it for ten days now, it seems to be coming back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  6. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Found the link to "San Clemente the Irish Brigade". together with the 11 CAR info and the Blue Devils in Italy (the American 88th Division) I have a fairly comprehensive view of the front from October 1944 to Jan 1945. Together with the 19th Infantry Brigade 8th Indian Div who defended Monte Cerere December 1944 (see memorial attached). Monte Grande & Cerere.jpg
     
  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    So getting back to the thread title. The meeting with Gen Truscott and Col Flay.
    Can any Americans help here?
     
  8. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    "Our generals were obsessed with the idea of holding ground, even the bleak mountain peaks. It was a Great World War mentality that was not successful then."

    Monte Grande was taken under great pressure from US General Mark Clark by the American 88th Division.
    During their race north. they lost 6000 casualties (The Blue Devils in Italy - Arcole Publishing).
    It was passed to 1st Infantry Division as part of their Command so had to be held under Clarks Orders .
    Truscott inherited it from him which is why he was meeting Col Flay They had been there before under Clark at Anzio.

    The 67th Field Regiment moved from Badia di Susinana on November 4th to Borgo san Lorenzo for a refit before heading north to lead the 1st Division into San Clemente Valley, relieving the US 88th Division who finally vacated it on 12th November. The 88th had fought their way as far as Monte Grande arriving on 17th October. Taking the Germans by surprise they set up a firm base in San Clemente Valley. They cut a Jeep track (The Boston Byeway) up the valley to fight their way onto Mt Cerere followed by Mt Grande, Farnetto and Frassineto.
    88th Division were well below strength, they lost 6000 men in the Apennines.
    The Division originally had 14,000 men, the infantry were in three Regiments, 349th 350th 351st.
    By the 20th October the 350th captured Mt Cuccoli to complete the seizure of the Monte Grande Massif the 350th took Farnetto, Frassinetto fell to the 349th but the weather deteriorated badly 351st ran into trouble, their 3rd Battalion fought its way onto Monte Calderaro on 23rd October. One Company attacked Vedriano two miles to the north east of Monte Grande. It stood on the road to Castel San Pietro Terme eight miles away and gateway to the Po Valley. They surprised 40 Germans who they took prisoner but a counter attack by the German 1st and 4th Fallschirmjager overran them.
    It was decided by High Command that due to the deteriorating weather and extended logistics it would be impossible to enter the Po Valley so withdrew the 88th to their rest area near Florence and place the British 1st Division there to hold the ground until the weather improved.
    The 88th never returned to Grande.The Boston Bye way became so waterlogged that it was only passed with difficulty by mules taking over four hours to cover what Jeeps were covering in minutes the month before.
    1st Division were under strength and unable to get replacements so were eventually withdrawn to Palestine to recruit and retrain the infantry battalions. The war ended before they were due to return
    OK its not a map its a sketch and a poor one, too much info on one part but its free from my book. It fits the story.
    . Monte Grande.jpg

    Buildings were at a premium This was RHQ to the 67th shared with A Sqn 11 CAR. Photo courtesy Mennell Family.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer Pearl Harbor Myth Buster

    Center of Military History may be able to help you, OP.
     
    Uncle Target likes this.
  10. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Thanks OP I will follow this up. Much appreciated.
     
  11. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I see that there is a book written by Lucian Truscott "Command Missions" published in 1954 and subsequently reprinted by various publishers.
    Copies are expensive and not without serious criticism of their quality. Does anyone on the forum have hands on experience of them.
     
  12. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    A final clip from "A History of the 67th Field Regt" regarding the "Inniskillings".

    Monte Grande Dec 18-22.jpg
     
  13. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.


    The following map looks like a improvement to your sketch map. MONTE GRANDE AREA MAP NO.8. Posns of U.S. TPS ON MONTE GRANDE TO TAKE OVER BY 1 DIV. AND Posns of 1 DIV TPS 3-10 NOV.

    MONTE GRANDE AREA.  No 8..jpg

     
  14. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    All my colleagues have family copies of The Eyes and Ears of the Regiment. Their relatives are mentioned in it, I have one too.
    A History of the 67th Field Regiment is a set of Documents found in an Archive not a book.
    I am trying to sketch my own maps to help understand the events. You cant use pre published maps in a book. In any case mine try to show number of things to illustrate a story.
    Where things happened and when. Only I know what I want to put on them.
    I wrote the text that is with my sketch as I have studied it from various sources which I acknowledge.

    In the Army you have to do your own sketch maps and models to brief the troops, it also makes you study things more closely. to get it all in your mind.
    You do it and rehearse it until you get it right.

    Try writing a book yourself to use as a battle tour guide, it will help to concentrate your mind.
    Enjoy your trips to Italy.
    My favourite city is Florence, I worked there for a while in the 70's. Above the city is Fiesole with some beautiful views and an ancient outdoor Etruscan Theatre.

    I have other family matters to concentrate on nowadays, I only come here for some light relief. and help those that might need it.
     
  15. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    No problem Uncle Target. Has for trying to write a book for myself (one is for your information)! Some of the younger members on this board have less time than others. The chap who I'm doing the book with, is well past the working age, and has a life apart from being my typewriter or (keypad thingers).. Do I need to mention what went on with his wife? Me and one finger are not that fast. He knows that this book would not of come about without his skills.

    Not sure what you mean by that you can't use pre published maps in a book? Weird. Why not? You can make your own maps with grid references from different war diaries ( of which I've done)! Before you ask- I've used skecth maps that appear in some of the war diaries.

    No problem pal, one will not take umbrage at you saying that I should try writing a book myself. When you take a revised History of the First Division in the Anzio Campaign, from around 170 pages ish to around 400 pages ( and its not done yet) then

    I've taken on a book and half. Do i stop? No. What do you include? And when do you stop? Perhaps you should try that?

    That nice chap John, who is my other half thinks I'm crackers in a way for adding more information and he understands why I'm doing it.

    When will it be completed? When I've completed it! (Rome was not built in a day).No pun intended.

    Perhaps you need to read parts of your previous post? Have you served in the Army? Like you, me and many other members all do try to help members that need it. Stating the obivous is not needed. Lets leave it at that. Its probably wise Uncle Target.


    No problems.
    Regards,
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022

Share This Page