Avoiding joining up, Spivs, Blackmarket & the community

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Belgian Dave, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know roughly how widespread the illegal avoidance of enlistment was?
    You often see the 'spiv' type character portrayed on tv who somehow has not had to serve, and also the criminal type who go into hiding from the police, but did these people really exist? London criminal Frankie Fraser certainly did, infact he said he could never forgive Hitler for giving up because so much opportunity for crime was available during the war years.
    How did the community react to seeing these people in relatively safety, whilst their family were risking lives fighting? Were there any reprisals, or 'citizen arrests'. Or did people turn a blind eye, as long as they could get black market goods from such people?
     
  2. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The declaration of war on the 3rd of September 1939 did not make any miraculous changes in the characters of everyone resident in the UK.

    Villians continued to be villians, thieves remained thieves and selfish folk had ample opportunities to remain selfish.

    In other words crime was still with us despite the media's attempts to link it with un-patriotic behaviour and this included men who dodged call-up and used the inevitable shortages to run a thriviing black market.

    There have been some excellent books written on the subject of life in wartime Britain.

    Give me some time and I will return here with the correct links.

    Found it ! http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/21606-wartime-britain-by-juliet-gardiner-anybody-read/

    Ron
     
  3. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ron, I'll look into it.

    How could you dodge the call up? And how forceful were the authorities in chasing up people who did?
     
  4. Hesmond

    Hesmond Well-Known Member

    Valence Road where the Krays lived was known as deserters corner !
     
  5. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    It was by no means as easy as is sometimes glibly suggested in novels, TV dramas etc. Every man of military age, 18-40, had a card declaring his status under the National Service Acts, and any police constable could ask for it to be produced at any time. Inability to produce such a card, backed up by a corresponding identity card, would lead to further enquiries.

    Theoretically one could attempt to live permanently underground, but that would mean no ration book, and depending on other people being willing to share their rations. There would also be difficulty in earning an income, as one;s work status would be constantly in question.
     
  6. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Hesmond - I did'nt know that it was callled that, but now you mention the Krays, I think their father went into hiding to avoid going into the services.

    Drayton - I would assume the more organised crime figures would be able to lay their hands on forged identity cards, ration books, etc fairly eaisily (and possibly make a good living from selling such items also). As you say, maybe not so simple as shown on tv, but im sure quite possible.
     
  7. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Assumption is one thing, evidence is another. Neither during the war itself nor at any time since has there been evidence of any significant "industry" in forging identity cards or ration books, or selling them on.

    There were prosecutions for irregularities, but these mostly had to do with using stolen ration books - not easily stolen, as most people guarded them very carefully - or attempting to use them after someone had died. A major difficulty in using ration books irregularly was that for the most essential items one had to be registered with a particular shop for the item in question and registered customers would become quite well known to the staff, so that strange use of a ration book could be quickly picked up.

    Where there was a minor industry was the "black market" - trade in rationed goods, not by use of forged ration books, but by-passing the rationing system. This could be carried on in a small way, but once dealers became greedy and tried to expand, they were more likely to be found out and prosecuted and heavily punished. Also, because the black market was somewhat random and episodic in time and range of goods, it could not be relied on for daily sustenance for someone without a ration book.
     
  8. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Dave, Further to Ron's reference, try "An Underworld at War" by Donald Thomas, published 2003 by John Murray. Very detailed, well researched and readable.
     
  9. Our bill

    Our bill Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the book tip Brian M59 I will be adding this one to my collection
     
  10. Hesmond

    Hesmond Well-Known Member

    Dave ,yes Old man Kray went in to hiding pretty sharp the local police regularly called for a update but he seemed to evade capture , I can also recommend the book Villeins Paradise which deals in part with the last years of the war and some of the dodgy dealings going on with the post war rationing ,some of the biggest scandals concerned army officers unloading surplus kit and American army stores being disposed of out the back door ,well gate in convoys of lorries!
     

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