What do you think of this battle? I know it was over shadowed by the the Battle of the Bulge, which followed shortly after and so there is not a lot of info about it. It was a pretty bloody place from what i have read and the US suffered tens of thousands (20 somthing thousand?) The Germans controled a dam further behind the forest so if teh Yanks took Hurtgen the Germans could just blow the dam and flood them all. So they couldnt really loose. What are views on this battle? Thanks, Robert
Originally posted by Monty@Mar 18 2004, 04:29 PM The Germans controled a dam further behind the forest so if teh Yanks took Hurtgen the Germans could just blow the dam and flood them all. This is a rather big misconception on this battle (Sept.1944 - Feb. 1945, but mainly Sept - Dec. 1944). The Roer Dams , being held by the Germans could never have flooded the Hurtgenwald area (approx 50 square miles of wooded hills, valleys and plateaus) and the Germans never even considered blowing them, as they were far to important to themselves. It seems to me that the Germans were actually surprised by the tenacity of the US assault in this area, as they didn't seem to be striving towards the dams (or anything else in particular!!!) untill later in the battle. If the Yanks had gone for them in the first place, chances are that this battle would never have happened, and the Americans wouldn't have become bogged down in this area for 3 months, using precious resources, materiel and men. With hindsight, it seems such a waste. B.
Originally posted by Monty@Mar 18 2004, 04:29 PM It was a pretty bloody place from what i have read and the US suffered tens of thousands (20 somthing thousand?) Quite a few US veterans rate this as the worst battle that was fought by US troops during WW2 (meaning for conditions rather than performance). Approx 24,000 (US) were killed, wounded and missing, with a further 9.000 casualties going out of action due to combat fatigue, trench-foot, etc. One "Dog face" once said that one American soldier was lost for every tree gained. I don't think this is a particularly accurate statement, but I know where he's coming from. B.
Market Garden and the loss of the 1st Airbourne Div at Arnhem is quoted as the British debacle of this period. Huertgen Forest is less well known, but surely the US equivalent.
A harshly fought battle, and a massive failure for 1st Army's leadership, Courtney Hodges, as well. Charles Whiting has a good book on this mess. Peter Allen covers it well in "One More River," too. So does Stephen Ambrose. My pal Appell8 on the Guarnere board's father was in that battle and in the book "Citizen Soldiers," which covers it. A horrible battle.
Originally posted by Monty@Mar 18 2004, 10:29 PM What do you think of this battle? I know it was over shadowed by the the Battle of the Bulge, which followed shortly after and so there is not a lot of info about it. It was a pretty bloody place from what i have read and the US suffered tens of thousands (20 somthing thousand?) The Germans controled a dam further behind the forest so if teh Yanks took Hurtgen the Germans could just blow the dam and flood them all. So they couldnt really loose. What are views on this battle? Thanks, Robert [post=23884]Quoted post[/post] I might even consider this part of the Battle of the bulge. But in any case, I think the german's main objective was just killing Allied soldiers, not any strategic aim. Hitler knew the war was over and this was one of his desperate plunges killing off many people from both his side and the Enemy's. He took the allies totally by surprise because like many other surprise attacks, the Allies under estimated the Krauts.
I had a wide interest on this battle and read almost everything that was available to me, whether it were printed or internet sources or articles. And I still have it. This was with no doubt one of the hardest, bloodiest and most miserable battles not only in WW2, but in the whole history of warfare! The stiff resistance, the never-ending shelling, mines and fire from pillboxes and fortified villages was one of the worst the American troops on ETO had to get through. The movie When Trumpets Fade does an excellent job in describing a small episode of it. It may be of interest, that in the Czech version of the movie I saw they have incorrectly translated Hurtgen as Ardennes. This only adds to the fact of how largely this battle is forgotten, overshadowed by other campaigns. Troops of both sides fought for months, in miserable conditions, in many cases with minimum food or ammo. While other battles were fought in a relatively short time, this slaughter went on for six months, gentleman! It's not a coincidence, that one German commander compared it to the hard battles he went through on the Eastern front. I have also created a group dedicated to this tragic battle, join it if you want! http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/group.php?groupid=10
An excellent website dedicated to the battle: http://home.pi.be/~cv920172/ScoWeb.htm Fine pages Ivan. (With some rather good 'then & Nows' for those that like 'em) Never fails to impress me how some corners of the war can inspire such devoted interest, and lead to labours of love like that site.
Exactly! I'm so happy to see that someone is going deeper than is the standard. A great homage to the fallen. -_-
Well done on those links Ivan. It is definitely a battle that is overshadowed by others during this period but definitely deserves more recognition. And definitely wasnt Hodge's finest hour.
(With some rather good 'then & Nows' for those that like 'em) Some good ones there , cheers for that, was worth a look. To be honest I know extremely little about this battle. Cheers Ivan,
I've been to the Hurtgen Forest and have to say that it is a very unforgiving environment to fight a modern battle. Narrow steep valleys with extremely close forest, there is no place for armour or even much in the way of soft skinned vehicles. I was amazed to be stood on what is no more than a dirt track cut into the steep hillside that we could only just get a car down, and being told that it was the MSR for the whole of the US Forces in the area.
This pic IMHO greatly illustrates what both sides had to get through. An experienced landser in captivity with I believe a less experienced American soldier still with a smile on his face:
