British/Commonwealth use of M4A3 Sherman IV

Discussion in 'Vehicle Names and Census Numbers' started by KevinT, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    I cam across the attached from Canadian Heritage T12743 pages 261 and 466 B Sqn 25 CADR in Italy.
    Page 261 lists a Sherman Mk IV T232932 as on hold, page 466 ( page 2 of WD ) shows the request for a Sherman Mk IV for exhibition. Although not sure if this is the same tank.
    I know Britain received a few for trials does anyone know if they were ever used operationally?

    Cheers

    Kevin oocihm.lac_reel_t12743_data_sip_data_files_0261.jpg.jpg InkedT12743 pg  466 BSqn.jpg - Copy_LI.jpg
     
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  2. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Jumping in a bit - but isn't it made clear in the following note for 6 May. "One Sherman M4 was driven to HQ of 1 ADR...." as requested? Or am I missing something?
    cheers
     
  3. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    What do you think it clarifies? I don't see it clarifying anything.

    It can't be a standard M4 (Sherman I) since there would have been no point in demonstrating that in 1944.
    It doesn't indicate anything about operation use.
     
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  4. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    The WD states Sherman Mk IV, M4A3? I was just curious whether they were ever used operationally by British / Commonwealth forces.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
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  5. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    Zaloga’s Armoured Thunderbolt data gives only 7 M4A3 Lend leased but then gives no indication of which country (UK, France or USSR) they went to. In addition to that Sherman Minutia has local issues of M4A3 to the French 2nd Armoured Div in summer 1944.

    The initial 1,690 Ford built M4A3 75mm were supposedly all used for training in the US. Only later, after being rebuilt, did any of these find their way overseas in late 1944/ 1945. It was about July / Aug 1944 before any of the later M4A3(75)w or M4A3(76) began to appear on the battlefield.

    I’ve never heard of any M4A3 / Sherman IV reaching British forces so this thread is interesting to me. If it happened it must have been a local theatre transfer.
     
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  6. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    The Adjutant made a mental typo? Mk IV for M4? I've never heard of M4A3 being used by any British, Canadian or New Zealand armoured formation. Quite apart from the logistics of introducing yet another engine into the already complicated supply & maintenance chain, what would be the point!

    I'm pretty convinced that it's just a typo. The chap from ADR wanted a M4 - not a MkIV - and that's what he got!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  7. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    The comment about a M4A4 Sherman V arriving is also interesting! How many V's were there in Italy? I though they had mostly Sherman I's, II's and III's.
     
  8. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Cancel the above!

    Sherman V's were apparently used by both Canadians and South Africans in Italy (as I have been informed by one of those very knowledgeable people that provide me with answers!)
     
  9. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Very knowledgeable person has come up with another possibility.

    M4A3(76). Production started in the States in March 44. Canadians received their first 76mm armed Sherman IVA in August and might have been the first to get them in Italy. This may (just) be a fore-runner, used for training etc in which case it seems logical that it would be wanted for a familiarisation demo. Receiving the 76mm would have been an EVENT of some magnitude. Does the war diary report when the regiment received theirs. My friend is of the opinion that May is probably too early. There are a lot of steps from factory in the US to unit in Italy.

    [I think I would make a very bad detective.]
     
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  10. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    I think you will find that these issues of 76mm tanks were M4A1(76) Sherman IIA with the cast hull and not M4A3(76) Sherman IVA with the welded hull and Ford engine.

    Due to production changes at the end of 1943 Britain had to accept Lend Lease allocations of 1330 M4A1(76) tanks in 1944, a version it didn’t really want. This version started rolling off the production lines in Jan 1944. In NWE the main user was the 1st Polish Armoured Div, when it re-equipped after its Normandy losses. Greater use of it was made in Italy with the first reports I know of being in units like 1st and 6th Armoured Divs in Sept 1944. This was because Italy had a lower priority for the 17pdr Sherman Firefly.

    Generally, unless there was some kind of special rush, equipment produced in the USA, whether it be aircraft or tanks, took about 4-5 months from factory door to front line. One such rush was in the case of the earliest M4A1(76) and M4(105) produced Jan/Feb 1944 and shipped to Britain in April in time for D-Day only for the US Army to decide not to issue them to units until July/Aug.
     

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