Brits in 'Op Veritable' : ID of unit?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by stolpi, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
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  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  3. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Yes, I noticed. Might the no. 44 on the rear of the Jeep indicate 61st AT Regt?
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  5. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    On a closer look: is that the Scottish Lion below the flash?


    [​IMG]
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    looks like the brigade indicator to me.
    chaps on those FB phoos are wearing that square of tartan more like a diamond , based on a corner whereas the IWM photo of 6 KOSB has the square flat on it's base
     
  7. Bedee

    Bedee Well-Known Member

    First Research THIS one is from the CAMERONIANS,
    BUT no 15th (Scottish) divisional sign. SO this should be 6th or 7th Battalion.

    9th Cameronians
    Sleeve insignia:
    CAMERONIANS black on dark green shoulder title (1943-1944), or 2" square tartan patch worn on its point (1945).
    15th (Scottish) divisional sign


    [​IMG]

    See
    http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2012/helmet-flashes-in-the-british-army

    Or
    http://www.cameronians.com/insignia.htm
    "2" square tartan patch worn on its point (1945)"
     
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  8. Bedee

    Bedee Well-Known Member

    Indeed, you're right Owen, this tartan patch belongs to the 6th KOSB Regiment.
    One of the first units in Germany during Veritable.

    Together with the 15th (Scottish) divisional sign on their Sleeve

    [​IMG]

    http://www.cameronians.com/15th/ukosb.htm
     
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  9. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]

    I've been informed that the soldiers on the pictures do not belong to the KOSB, but instead are Cameronians, since they wear the tartan shoulder flash diagonally. That would make them 9th Cameronians, since it is obvious they belong to 15th Scottish Division. The shoulder flashes of the medics on the above photograph are clearly worn diagonally.

    Since I'm no expert when it comes to shoulder flashes: can anyone of the experts on this forum confirm the above. Are the soldiers depicted Cameronians.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    see bit in blue text in Beedee's post #7 above
     
  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Br Offensive n Holland 20.jpg
    Can anyone give an ID of the unit of this AVRE of 79th Arm Div?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  12. It all depends on the date and location. I've seen this photo on Google Cultural Institute and saved the following screengrab, but can't find it again.
    AVRE 2A.jpg
    I think I can (barely) distinguish the AoS "1234" of 6 Aslt Regt RE just to the right of the first-aid box on the rear plate. The other photos in the series might give us some clue as to the time and place and thus point to the Aslt Sqn.

    Michel
     
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  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Can you date it? If it's 1944 I have that war diary :)
     
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  14. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Drew, I believe it's Feb 1945.

    This picture belongs to the series of TIME/Life photographs on Veritable. Just like the one I posted in the first post of this thread.

    To fix the location of these images I'm now looking for a combination of 9th Cameronians and 6 Aslt Regt RE.
     
  15. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    This might be the sequence of the images:

    Br Offensive n Holland 6.jpg
    1) While medics are bandaging a wounded man, a small group of POWs are escorted back from a ruined farmhouse, which appears to be 'Haus Kreutzfurth'. The other man in the next shell hole unfortunately is beyond any help. It seems like both men became a casualty from a shellburst in the trees. A thick cut-off branch has fallen across the second hole. The man wearing the Balmoral cap could be an officer.

    Br Offensive n Holland 7.jpg
    2) A group of infantry men, who are digging in beyond the ditch, watch the scene as the POWs pass by. The same group of soldiers appears on the picture 7) below.

    Br Offensive n Holland 5.jpg
    3) The medic has unpacked the dressing and starts bandaging the wounded soldier

    Br Offensive n Holland 8.jpg
    4) .. finished the dressing

    Br Offensive n Holland 18.jpg
    5) A soldier has come to the assistance of the medics and it seems they are about to lift the wounded man onto the stretcher.

    Br Offensive n Holland 4.jpg
    6) The same medics with their wounded somewhat further down the road towards Groesbeek (for the exact location see: VERITABLE: 15th Scottish & 43rd Wessex Divisions in the Reichswald battle (Feb 1945))

    Br Offensive n Holland 10.jpg
    7) A group of soldiers digging in. They seem a bit affected by the incident that just happened. Note the fresh shrapnel marks on the trees.

    Br Offensive n Holland 48.jpg
    7) The body of the fallen soldier (may he RIP) has been carefully moved off the road, out of harms way. He carries a stengun which might indicate he was a section leader. Note the wooden fence which is a small bridge railing and is also visible on pictures 1 & 2.

    Br Offensive n Holland 50.jpg
    8) Shot of a now empty lane.


    The real sad thing about the photographs is that the British casualties probably were caused by 'friendly' shellfire. According to a quote of the War Diary of the 9th Cameronians:

    8 Feb 45
    1300 A Coy commences moving to F.U.P. followed by B & C. The main axis was by this time impassable at one point due to mud and tanks were held up but were still able to give support.
    1440
    B Coy reported progressing well but own ARTY falling short and number of casualties

    See for the War Diaries of 15th Scottish adwb's site: http://media.wix.com...f2e3380a100.pdf
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'll have a look but I'm 99.9% sure I only have the 1944 diaries for both units. Nice run of pictures :)
     
  17. These photos do look like they were shot around the same time & place. 15 (Scottish) Div was supported by 81 & 284 Aslt Sqns RE (both part of 6 Aslt Regt RE) , but I don't know which Sqn supported which Bde...

    If a higher res version of the last photo in stolpi's latest post above can be found, it might show the Sqn symbol.

    Michel
     
  18. This last AVRE also appears on IWM B14518 here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Campaign_in_North_West_Europe_1944-45_B14518.jpg
    "Churchill AVRE with Spigot mortar in Kleve, Germany, 12 February 1945."

    In the higher resolution version (click "original file"), with the eye of the faith one could see a Sqn symbol, just only visible in the form of a very faint vertical rectangle (of which only a part is discernible) between the Besa and the driver's port. This would indicate 284 Aslt Sqn RE. The light colour of the rectangle would also be consistent with the Yellow for 6 Aslt Regt RE.

    Michel
     
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  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Does this help? From WO 205/1160 The Story of 1 Assault Brigade

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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