HI all, I have a Churchill Crocodile mk VII that I am wanting to put into a diorama but it has to be historically correct what confuses me is that the markings that came with the tank I think are.2nd army,107th Regt, 34 Tank Brigade, but was that even a crocodile unit so did they have them? I thought the only crocodile units where, 1 Fife and Forfar Yeomanry 31 Tank Brigade 79 Armoured Division and 7 Royal Tank Regiment 31 Tank Brigade 79 Armoured Division If anyone can shine some light on my confusion that would be great! Cheers Dan
D bellz the 107th Regiment of the Royal Armoured corps was indeed a member of the 34th Independent Armoured Brigade in 2nd Army figthing in NWE - but as Gun Tanks and not "Funnies" - as far as I am aware... Cheers
Dan You have forgotten the first one of all - 141 RAC, formerly 7 Buffs - who fought from D-day onwards and the graves of whose members can be seen in just about every war cemetery in NW Europe. Chris
D Bellz - there is always the normal confusion of Tank Brigades and Armoured brigades- two different entities for along time during the war but as the war progressed - the Army Tank brigades disappeared into ARMOURED brigades- and here is a classic case - if we look at the units in 79th Armoured Division - of 31 Armoured bde - which evolved from 31 TANK bde in the NWE campaign with much the same units of 141RAC - 1st Fife & Forfar and Canadian Carrier unit - TO 31st Armoured Bde of 141 RAC - 1sr F& F's and 7RTR - as well as 33Armoured bde of 1st Notts yeo - East Riding yeo and 4th RTR and 11RTR - the 31st ARMOURED bde were called the funnies - whereas 33rd were gun Tanks ....which contrasts with the initial units in the Divison in 1942 0f 4/7 D.G's - 13/18 Hussars and East Riding yeo- which again was different in 1943 with 141 RAC -22nd D.G's - 1sr F&F's - 1st Lothians easy to confuse cheers
Cheers guys but yeh I’m still confused lol, but if someone could answer me this. I want to put this tank into a diorama which battles in Normandy would it fit into to be historically correct? (if that makes sense)
DBellz- you have two excellent clues on the rear mudguards - on the left is the Divisional sign - looks like 79th Armoured - and the # 157 - which will give you the Battalion - so look that # up - there's a list somewhere If it is 79th then their Battles were Normandy - Scheldt - Geilankirchen - Rhine - Elbe - Roer .. Cheers
Hey Tom- First off cheers for your input. You see this is the problem... I believe the divisional sign is of the 34 Tank Brigade which if I’m right didn’t have crocodiles only the 31 Tank Brigade did?
No mention of crocs here. THE HISTORY of 34 ARMOURED BRIGADE The Brigade had never been armed with any tank but the Churchill for the whole of its life, starting with Mark Is and Mark IIs, with their two‑pounder main armament, in the winter of 1941/42. We saw our tanks surmount their mechanical teething troubles and grow to man's estate, as then reckoned, in the Mark III, with its six‑pounder gun, and so forward in improvement until we proudly counted our relatively few Mark VIIs with their thicker armour when we left the United Kingdom. On leaving the UK each Regiment had twenty-two 6-pdr tanks, kept to have the benefit of DS (Discarding Sabot) ammunition for use against enemy tanks. This provision applied to the original units of 34 Brigade when they reached France, but 31 Brigade (7 and 9 RTR) were almost entirely converted to the 75 mm gun. We fought throughout with a mixture of: Mark III (increased armour welded on to ordinary Mark III with 6‑Pdr. Gun). Mark IV (75‑mm. gun converted from free elevation to geared). Mark V (95‑mm. gun Close Support ‑ 2 tanks per Squadron). Mark VI (75‑mm. built as such). Mark VII (75‑mm. built as such with thicker armour). I'd find some other markings if I were you.
D Bellz you don't sound too confident of your markingsa you could be right that what you have is that of 34th bde - so here is the full list of both Tank Bdes and Armoured Bdes - compiled by Peter G -the Battalion numbers are listed somewhere else - I know that in 21st TANK bde we had the 173-4 -5 numbers Cheers British Formation Signs
D.Bellz, I am as confused as you as to which unit used Crocodiles but I must say your model looks excellent. I look forward to resolution of the unit problem and the eventual diorama. Good luck!
Mike - no need for confusion - the 79th Armoured Division was founded to produce "funnies" and Maj.Gen Hobart or "HOBO" was made G.O.C. - and after quite a few ups and downs from 1942 - he was instrumental in converting the 141Regt RAC - 1st Fife & Forfars plus a Canadian Carrier regt into 31st TANK Bde with these "funnies" around 1943 - time went by and close to the end of 1944 they were - in turn - converted to 31st ARMOURED bde and at that time- close to the Rhine they consisted of 141 regt RAC -1st Fife and Forfars and 7th RTR which came from 34thTANK/ARMOURED Bde HOBO was instrumental in forming the 7th Armoured Div in the desert in 1940/41 and was fired by a jealous Area C.O.C. - he came home and joined the Home Guard as a Lance Corporal- when Alanbrooke asked him to attend the war office to discuss a new job (79th Div) - he then asked if he should attend wearing his uniform as a Maj.Gen - or Lance Corporal- Alanbrooke's reply is not noted anywhere ....but happily HOBO accepted the commission Cheers
Tom, I have read a lot about Percy Hobart and the 'funnies' - what brilliant thinking. Shame the Americans never took him too seriously. What confuses me, even after your excellent accounts, is how you ever managed to keep track of Corps, Armies, Regiments, Battalions, who was attached to whom, dates of departure, embarkation etc. Even with the benefit of diaries etc I am still struggling to keep track of changes to unit designations. I suppose it must have been essential to you with unit changes and to keep track of friends etc during reorganisations but to a non-serving 1960s child such as me it is a hugely confusing almost continual change. That is why, Tom, your continued input is invaluable to us mere mortals. Great respects, Mike
Mike - Thank you for those kind words - it's quite easy actually once you get into the bone that there were two kinds of Armoured actions - which the RAC cap badge tends to illustrate - the mailed fist to knock down the defence lines - or heavy assault battalions( Valentine - Matildas - Churchills - Chieftains - Challengers et al - and the four arrows to illustrate the break through and swan around in the enemies rear by the pursuit Battalions - or lighter Tanks such as the Covenantor - Crusader - Cromwell - Comet et al....The Germans called it Schwerpunkt und Aufrollen but same meaning ....concentrate on one point to break through then swan around ... So the heavy mobs were usually independent TANK Brigades and attached as necessary to an Infantry Division- such as 25th Tank bde and 21st Tank bde attached to the 1st Canadian Infantry - and the lighter Tanks were in the Armoured Brigades invariably as part of an Armoured Division -such as 26th Armoured Bde. in 6th Armoured Div. 2nd Armoured bde in 1st Armoured Div etc. the onset of the Battle Tank - Chieftain - Challenger did away with the need for two different brigades and all were converted to Armoured towards the end of the WW2 - and remain so .... Hobo of course took another direction and his battalions were the real heavy mobs and would knock anything down with their variety - the Americans made indifferent use of his genius as he was not American -and a relative of Monty - and as always - woke up later ! The Cavalry Regiments- seldom Battalions - always confused them and they called them fractionalised regiments - and one classic Pulizer author claimed that in the Lirl valley - the 17th battalion of the 21st Lancers took over a small town .....well you have to laugh Cheers
Dbellz- here is how we recognised each other in Italy - and I am sure there will be a similar list from the Tank units in the NWE area you will note that the 21st Tank bde - two days before the start of the Gothic Line battles - had to change our numbers - to much swearing and annoyance - in order to confuse Kesselring that we were the 1st Canadian Armoured bde - at that time near Florence and had been beamed over to the Adriatic side of the country - don't know if it confused him - it certainly confused us Modelling Cheers
Cheers guys but yeh I’m still confused lol, but if someone could answer me this. I want to put this tank into a diorama which battles in Normandy would it fit into to be historically correct? (if that makes sense) I am pretty certain that the Crocodiles trailers in Normandy did not have the manual handling poles high on the sides of the trailer, nor the tubular sockets for them lower on the sides at front and back. It is very rare to see any genuine wartime pictures of croc trailers with these fittings (though there are a few). Nicely finished model! Chris
