Dambusters inheritance

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by PsyWar.Org, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    A much-loved elderly relative of mine recently passed away and left me a few items of family history. Included were the items pictured below.

    [​IMG]

    It turns out, unknown to me until now, that her step-brother was Flight Sergeant Gilbert John Green, 1322942, of 49 and 617 squadron. He was a bomb aimer and part of the third wave of the Dambusters raid. His crewed survived the raid but were shot down a few months later on a raid against Mannheim.

    The little group passed to me includes his Observer wing and sergeant stripes. Also is a programme for the Dambusters movie, which must have been attended either by my relative and/or her step-father and mother. Just wish I knew more of the story, as I say I had no idea until after her death.

    Her step-father also appears to have had an interesting military career in India at the turn of the century and at Mons in WWI. She also left me beaded snakes and other animals made by Turkish prisoners of war.

    Lee
     
    James S likes this.
  2. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Lee
    Very interesting, I worked with a chap Jim Wolfe he actually had the wings from Richard Todd's uniform he wore in the film plus several letters sent to him over the years.
    When asked by anyone how he knew him the reply was we got together on the train from London to York.

    Just got back of holiday whilst away I talked with a chap from Glossop in Derbyshire he told me about him and his friends cycling to Derwent water to watch the making of the film back in the fifties.
     
  3. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Lee
    Very interesting, I worked with a chap Jim Wolfe he actually had the wings from Richard Todd's uniform he wore in the film plus several letters sent to him over the years.
    When asked by anyone how he knew him the reply was we got together on the train from London to York.

    Just got back of holiday whilst away I talked with a chap from Glossop in Derbyshire he told me about him and his friends cycling to Derwent water to watch the making of the film back in the fifties.

    Richard Todd, absolute gentlemen as I've heard and had a rather interesting war himself.

    The insignia above I believe to be from one of his original uniforms. It is kept inside an official booklet listing the war dead at Rheinberg War Cemetery. Printed in 1958, it contains the same data that is now available on the CWGC website.

    Funny as I'm searching for more information about Jimmy Green, I find a link back to WW2Talk with a photo of his grave:
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-grave-photographs/18109-dambusters-finding-their-final-resting-places-headstones-2.html#post181202

    http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0183f.jpg[​IMG]
    http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0183f.jpg

    This is an incredible website and the amount of knowledge and research work here never ceases to amaze.

    Lee
     
  4. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The reason why there was a Repeat World Premiere was that the Royal Command performance held on the previous night, the 12th anniversary of the raid, was oversubscribed.Hence a second showing was arranged for the 17th May 1955.

    The first night was attended by Princess Margaret and also present were some of the surviving aircrew such as Mick Martin,Harold Hobday and Bert Foxlee.Guy Gibson's father and widow,Eve attended also on the first night.The second night,both showing at the Empire Cinema in Leicester Square was attended by the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and obviously included nok of those who flew on the operation.

    Those RAF personel who had been involved in the making of the film at Hemswell and Scampton were invited to a special showing at Scampton station cinema on 20 May 1955.For those who had long gone from RAF service we had to wait for the general release of the film to see if we have found fame in a few frames.Alas when the film came out we had been cut out.I wonder where the cuts of films are which showed us in our glorious youth.

    Somewhere I have a photograph given to me by one of our Corporals (Engines) who took the photograph over the port side engines as they passed over the Derwent Dam.The Lancasters were in the hands of No 97 Squadron groundcrew for servicing arrangements.He was given the job of undertaking the first line servicing of the engines and was in a position to fly during the filming.Have not heard of him since demob but he apparently lives in Canada and wrote to the Lincolnshire Echo, a year or so ago objecting to the theme of the film retake.
     
    PsyWar.Org likes this.
  5. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The reason why there was a Repeat World Premiere was that the Royal Command performance held on the previous night, the 12th anniversary of the raid, was oversubscribed.Hence a second showing was arranged for the 17th May 1955.

    The first night was attended by Princess Margaret and also present were some of the surviving aircrew such as Mick Martin,Harold Hobday and Bert Foxlee.Guy Gibson's father and widow,Eve attended also on the first night.The second night,both showing at the Empire Cinema in Leicester Square was attended by the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and obviously included nok of those who flew on the operation.

    Those RAF personel who had been involved in the making of the film at Hemswell and Scampton were invited to a special showing at Scampton station cinema on 20 May 1955.For those who had long gone from RAF service we had to wait for the general release of the film to see if we have found fame in a few frames.Alas when the film came out we had been cut out.I wonder where the cuts of films are which showed us in our glorious youth.

    Somewhere I have a photograph given to me by one of our Corporals (Engines) who took the photograph over the port side engines as they passed over the Derwent Dam.The Lancasters were in the hands of No 97 Squadron groundcrew for servicing arrangements.He was given the job of undertaking the first line servicing of the engines and was in a position to fly during the filming.Have not heard of him since demob but he apparently lives in Canada and wrote to the Lincolnshire Echo, a year or so ago objecting to the theme of the film retake.

    Thanks Harry for the details. I did wonder what the repeat world premiere was all about.

    More details about Green's crew of ED924/G. It seems they were sent to attack the Sorpe dam but were caught in heavy flak, suffered damage and then couldn't locate the dam. As dawn approached, a mist developed so they returned to base with their 'bouncing bomb'. Apparently Gibson was furious and sent the crew back to 49 squadron in disgust.
     
  6. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Lee/Harry
    Many thanks for the futher information, I am sure I read somewhere that the original planes in the film came from the French Maritime Squadrons as they were the only lancs still flying.
    I was always told they were modified Lincolns.
     
  7. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Lee,

    Thanks for posting the photograph and storyline.

    Excellent reading.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  8. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Just returned from a visit to a relative with a number of photos of Jimmy Green and some of his crew.

    One photo is a beautiful shot of the crew walking in front of their Lanc. Sadly the photo is undated but believe it has been previously published as crops of it are available on the internet.

    Another shot is a close-up of Jimmy in uniform. The Observer wings and stripes are clearly visible.

    Fabulous! :)

    Don't have access to a scanner just now but will post the pictures when I do.


    Lee
     
  9. Oggie2620

    Oggie2620 Senior Member

    Will look forward to seeing the photos.. Lovely story... Isnt it strange how reticent people were about these things....
    Dee
     
  10. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Hi Lee

    I am the great nephew of P/O Cyril T Anderson, the crew photo you mention is in the 49 Sqd book, 'Beware the Dog at War' by John Ward, the photo was taken around June '43 after a night excercise.

    I am in contact with several family members of the crew.
    I also have one of 4 of the crew outside a nissen hut while at 1654 HCU. taken around late Feb early March '43. I have been working on there final flight for some time now and was this year in Germany at the crash site of ED702, and where the crew were first buried in Offenbach.

    I also have been working on how the aircraft was shot down, and by whom. With the help of Uwe Benkel the crash site was located a primary search of the site resulted in no finds but due to the crop a full search could not be done. they will return later in the year to try again

    There are a few pictures in my photobucket of the trip to Germany this included Rheinberg War Cemetery, where Rememberence crosses were placed on each of the crew.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Sgt Green - Rheinberg Cemetery

    [​IMG]
    Uwe Benkel, Christian Schwein & Peter Schreiber search for wreckage of ED702

    http://photobucket.com/Germany-2010

    I am also slowly making a 11ft wing R/C model of ED702

    Dom
     
    James S, dbf and PsyWar.Org like this.
  11. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Skintman1
    Thank you for the photos and sharing your research, keep us posted on how you are getting on.
    Love the idea of the model lanc that will be awesome.
     
  12. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Fantastic Dom! Thanks for contacting me and sharing the crash site photos.

    The nissen hut photo sounds like the second one I have. The crew names are labelled on the back but not the date or location. I also have a single photo of Jimmy in uniform - taken in the back garden of the family home it looks like.

    I still don't have access to a scanner right now but will post them here when I have.

    It would be great to hear more about your research and their final mission. On my next trip to the National Archives I was intending to dig out the 49 squadron raid reports to see what they have to say and also copy 49's Operation Record Book.

    Lee

    Hi Lee

    I am the great nephew of P/O Cyril T Anderson, the crew photo you mention is in the 49 Sqd book, 'Beware the Dog at War' by John Ward, the photo was taken around June '43 after a night excercise.

    I am in contact with several family members of the crew.
    I also have one of 4 of the crew outside a nissen hut while at 1654 HCU. taken around late Feb early March '43. I have been working on there final flight for some time now and was this year in Germany at the crash site of ED702, and where the crew were first buried in Offenbach.

    I also have been working on how the aircraft was shot down, and by whom. With the help of Uwe Benkel the crash site was located a primary search of the site resulted in no finds but due to the crop a full search could not be done. they will return later in the year to try again

    There are a few pictures in my photobucket of the trip to Germany this included Rheinberg War Cemetery, where Rememberence crosses were placed on each of the crew.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Sgt Green - Rheinberg Cemetery

    [​IMG]
    Uwe Benkel, Christian Schwein & Peter Schreiber search for wreckage of ED702

    http://photobucket.com/Germany-2010

    I am also slowly making a 11ft wing R/C model of ED702

    Dom
     
    roodymiller likes this.
  13. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Hi Lee

    I have the 49 ORB, I would recommend looking on the 49 Sqd website and order John Wards book that i mentioned before, I have a fair ammount of information now on the crew, including all the ops they did together,
    I would also suggest you contact Colin Crisp at 49 Sqd Association he will be able to provide you with a lot of information, that I dont have .
    It is not expencive to join the 49Sqd Association, I have and have been made most welcome, to the extent i am now the unoficial official photgrapher at the assocition reunions :lol: There are the last two years of the reunions in my photobucket. contact Alan Parr for joining the association all contact details are on their website 49 Squadron Association

    I have two photographs of Jimmy, one titled 'dad & Jimmy' the other is in a back garden I could post them here if you wish.

    I have been working with Colin at 49Sqd Assoc , AHB, and Theo Boiten, we thought we had worked out with a lot of help from Theo that Oblt Lenz Finster had shot ED702 down, but i have now made contact with Gerhard Bracke, he is related to Lenz Finster, the Radar Op Fw Beugal told him they they watch the crew bail out from the a/c, and after the war Beugal met up with some of the surviving crew members, due to this info we now know for certain that it was not Lenz Finster , Gerhard contacted other reserchers in Germany and Hans Ring has worked out that it was possibly Lt Heinz Grimm, the time and details fit but i am looking for more information to confirm, Theo is also checking this for me.

    In the photgraphs in my PB you will see us meeting the Burgermeister Axel Vasyl , and several witness of the crash of ED702, none of the crew survived the crash, a Priest from Offenbach officiated at the buriel service of all 7 men.
    [​IMG]
    Uwe Benkel & Burgermeister of Offenbach Axel Vasyl

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Offenbach Cemetery the original burial place

    [​IMG]
    The Church at Offfenbach.

    If you send me your email by PM i'll email you the ORB details I have

    Dom
     
  14. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Skintman1
    Thank you for the photos and sharing your research, keep us posted on how you are getting on.
    Love the idea of the model lanc that will be awesome.


    Hi Oldman

    The build is on another forum Lancaster-Archive Forum • View topic - R/C Avro Lancaster Build. Front turret/nose blister build. Lancaster-Archive Forum .. and also more pictures in my PB http://photobucket.com/Model_Lancaster its a slow build at the moment its been one of those years where ive not had time to stop and deal with it, though i now have a deadline for completion the secretary of 49 Association Alan Parr has asked if i can bring it to next years reunion! :unsure:

    [​IMG]
    Things have moved on a little since this was taken...
    Dom
     
  15. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Dom, PM sent :)
    Please do post the photo you have of Jimmy, would love to see it.
    In lieu of decent scan images, I'll post a digital photo of the old photographs I have here.
     
  16. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Hi Lee

    email sent with some info for you on all the ops they did together,

    [​IMG]
    Sgt J Green in the back garden
    [​IMG]
    Dad & Jimmy Green 1942 (not my caption this is how i was sent it)

    Dom
     
  17. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Dom, great photos! The top one is identical to one I have.
    Would it be possible to get a high-res scan of the bottom one?

    Here are mine. The bleached out middle photo is probably the same as the nissan hut one you have.

    [​IMG]

    Thanks for your most informative email too :)

    Lee
     
    James S likes this.
  18. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Hi Lee

    Ive emailed the other pic to you, yes the bleached one is the nissan hut i have, this was as i said while they were at 1654 HCU just before they went to 49 Sqd.

    The top right one is the crew returning from night excercise about June of '43,

    They transfered to 617 Sqd shortly after arriving at 49 Sqd but remained with 49 completing 5 ops to gain some experience before going to join the rest of 617 for training,
    As you wil know ED924 AJ-Y took off with the reserve wave just after midnight there target was the Diemal Dam they were redirected to the Sorpe, with the tail gun out of action, dawn approching, and low fuel (during the time to get to the Diemal Dam they had to avoid serchlights and AA that were now searching for the remaining crews) they were unable to pin-point the Sorpe Dam due to the mist they spent some time searching for it before deciding as a group to return to base.

    As said Gibson was not happy with there resons for returning with upkeep and had then sent back to 49, after a short rest they continued operations before being shot down and killed on 23/sept '43, on the op to Mannheim, they were on the homeward leg when they encountered the night fighter, I am still trying to confirm who th night fighter was at the moment we have Lt Heinz Grimm.

    Dom
     
  19. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    I'd like to publicly pass on my thanks to Dom. He has done some outstanding research over many years on Jimmy's crew and their last mission together. And has kindly shared that information with me.

    Thanks Dom!

    Lee
     
  20. Skintman1

    Skintman1 Member

    Hi Lee

    Thank you for the thanks.... I've been reserching Anderson & Crew for a few years, more than i care to remember :D

    with that reserche is trying to find more of the family's of the crew, my great aunt did keep in touch with all for a number of years before sadly losing touch, I now with you have conections to 4 of the crewmen. :)

    Dom
     

Share This Page