I have been aware of the activities in Stoke Park for a while, and today i went to have a closer look and take some measurements of the Rifle pits and look at them in the layout of the land from a defensive point of view, to understand what the Home Guard in Guildford was hoping to achieve. There are a few pics here, sorry if they are boring, but i enjoy looking at these things in situ and trying to work out the context with which they were sited. Ok the site in question is Stoke Park in guildford, which according to this map had a large amount of defensive works, including a long 2 part defensive ditch, 21 rifle pits (RP), 2 bren gun pits (BMG), 4 Spigot mortar sites (SM) and 4 northover projector sites. There is also indications of lots of barbed wire and in the woods near the river well over 150 dragons teeth arranged in rows of 5. Please do view the Hi-res version on flickr as its all readable then http://www.flickr.com/photos/flat4/4622329934/sizes/o/ There is a key in the map aswell explaining the colours. The area i concentrated on is the area with the large number of dragons teeth as this area is relatively untouched. The rest of stoke park has been landscaped and the WW2 features either demolished, or are now not identifiable (to me anyway) due to 70 years of tree growth and landscaping. I found a few features, that i hadnt seen before, 2 more fire pits in better condition than the first, and also evidence of the defensive ditch - its very filled and rounded now and not very deep but the layout and orientation of it indicate that it is still there in parts. One of my main objective upon returning was to establish if the fire pits had been just filed or partly demo'd and i took a small spade to excavate the corner of one to establish the depth. any way some pics Rifle Pit 1 (dogleg shaped) this trench is a dogleg in shape and is 6 feet wide, with the long end of the 'L' being 15 feet long and aligned north to south. the short part of the 'L' is 6 feet wide and 11 feet long and aligned east to west This is the Rifle Pit before the digging I excavated down till i couldnt go any further, i was digging modern rubbish and rubble type material then eventually found that i could dig underneath the stone construction - this indicated to me that i was at the bottom of the trench. This surprised me as i was expecting the Rifle Pit to be on a concrete raft or footing and a lot deeper but it wasnt, it just seems like they dug a hole and then lined it with cement filled sandbags. From bottom to top measured a little over 2 feet. Excavating Some pics of bits i cleaned up to understand how they were constructed, which was a double row of sandbags, then a layer on top rotated through 90 degrees. these are some pics of me measuring, and lol at the hole i dug..... These are views from Rifle Pit one looking towards the river. it appears to be covering the dragons teeth and the approach up the hill This is the view west from Rifle Pit 1 South from Rifle Pit 1 and this is the view east from the point of the dogleg I then filled the small hole back in and went to look to see if i could find any of the other features on my map A short distance away i found a 2nd Rifle Pit, that measured 6 feet by 11 feet. this one was in better condition than the other one although someone had been using it as a den. It is rectangular in shape. It is aligned east to west. Rifle Pit 2 This is the view from the front of the Rifle Pit, about 15 metres away are the dragons teeth, this is looking north Almost right next to Rifle Pit 2 was a third Rifle Pit (Rifle Pit 3) of larger dimensions which measured 17 feet by 8 feet and was aligned on a east to west axis like Rifle Pit 2. It faced the dragons teeth but lower down than the other 2 Rifle Pit i found, it had a good view across the teeth, and also down to the river, as well as out to the road on the other side. This is the view south (the dragons teeth are hidden in the undergrowth about 15 metres ahead) and this is the view up from Rifle Pit 3 to Rifle Pit 2 (RP2 is just behind the tree in the mid-ground, about 2-3 metres away) So thats the 3 Rifle Pits i found, i also scouted out the rest of the area and found some evidence of the single Rifle pit near the spigot mortar site by the main road. alas the spigot mortar is either very overgrown or demolished. Single rifle pit remains (I didnt have time to explore whether these are just abandoned pieces or if the pit is filled up completely. these are the only bits around though) I also discovered the boathouse thats indicated on the map by the dragons teeth. These are the views from the river, this is the dragons teeth as they would look if you were trying to get past them. the only bit i cant fathom is which direction they were expecting attack from, the A3 side of the dragons teeth (the left in this picture) with them able to lay down fire across the dragons teeth, or from the right from the guidlford/godalming bypass. looking at the map (large one on flickr) im assuming that they would be expecting attack from the right hand side, aswell as the top as these are the most heavily defended areas and seem to centre on the river and the main road. Dragons teeth, looking up the slope, the guildford/godalming bypass is to the right, the river behind you, the A3 to the left. Rifle Pit 1 is at the top of the dragons teeth, slightly to the right I walked all round the site, and found no more easily discernible remains, apart from some evidence of the defensive ditch, the piece i found is running behind rifle pit 1, and continuing down towards the road. Across the road, all reamins are gone and in the small woods that are there it is so overgrown that i cant tell what does or doesnt remain. So couple of questions i put to you.... 1. Was this a common way to construct the rifle pits? just basic lined holes? 2. what depth would they have been originally? 3. Have i interpreted this in anyway nearing correct? first real time i have tried to look at a defensive site in context, and get a feel for it, usually i just snap away my pics and leave. quite enjoyed this, made a change to my usual way of thinking about it.
Really nice piece of work there that made interesting reading, thanks. Do you know what the defences were for? What was it they were defending? That might help answer some of your queries.
no i dont not really, i know that guildford was a heavily defended part of the GHQ stop line, and had numerous factories chruning out armoured vehicles and so on. its also on the direct route up from the coast to london so i had assumed (not wise!) that was what they were trying to do, GHQ line and protect the factories of guildford. im really not sure though, i have a couple of books on it, but they are that great at explaining why guildford (and other places) were defended like this
Its in a book called 'Guildford, the War Years' I have emailed the Surrey Archive Centre to enquire as to whether they have the whole map, as i would be interested in seeing what else was going on around guildford
Hello Mr Ed, Fascinating stuff! The Surrey History Centre catalogue can be searched on line: Search for archives or books held at Surrey History Centre The folks at SHC are very helpful but have rather limited resources and it may take them some time to answer your query. CS
Hi MrEd, There are a few pics here, sorry if they are boring, but i enjoy looking at these things in situ and trying to work out the context with which they were sited. Definitely not boring and you've hit the nail on the head by wanting to work out the context - a few more visits (especially when the vegetation's low) may reveal more clues to the site. Rifle Pit 2 This is interesting; the ledge below the parapet is an elbow rest for riflemen. This ledge wasn't specified (I think - and this from memory) until 1941 so this may date this one trench, but not necessarily the whole site. So couple of questions i put to you.... 1. Was this a common way to construct the rifle pits? just basic lined holes? 2. what depth would they have been originally? 3. Have i interpreted this in anyway nearing correct? first real time i have tried to look at a defensive site in context, and get a feel for it, usually i just snap away my pics and leave. quite enjoyed this, made a change to my usual way of thinking about it. In response to your questions: 1. Slit trenches come in different shapes and sizes; straight, v-shaped and cruciform but there's no limits to the variations you might see. Revetment was done using whatever was to hand; corrugated iron, planks, wooden hurdles - in your case concrete sandbags. This was probably downright dangerous - one collapse caused by a nearby bomb/shell and the occupants are going to be buried under half a ton of concrete. 2. Sizes - usually 60cm wide and assume about 3ft length for every man in the trench. This allows you to count potentially how many men there were defending the position and perhaps group trenches into section or platoon localities. (Note: Home Guard platoons comprised as many men as were available and did not necessarily follow military unit strengths.) Trench depth may vary according to local geology - a standard two-man slit was perhaps 6 foot deep with a drainage sump dug deeper in the middle. This created a foot well so the men could face each other sitting down with their whole body below ground. To fight, they would stand on their 'seat'. Shallow tenches may indicate troops kneeling to shoot, though not very comfortable. If the ground is liable to flood, then breastworks might be raised above ground at the expense of concealment. 3. You seem to have the right approach by getting a defender's-eye-view from each trench. If you go back when the undergrowth is low, you'll get an even better picture of what's going on. Each trench should have been sited with a particular fire task in mind, and arcs of fire from these positions should interlock. The key thing is that you're doing the right thing in looking at the defence works in relation to each other and also the landscape. See this page on my website: Downsforce Project - landscape evidence for a bit more on this sort of thing. The Defence of Britain Project lists Guildford as a nodal point; these were fortified road junctions to force the Germans off-road, or make them fight for the transport network. As NPs were to be mainly defended by Home Guard, NPs usually coincide with towns and villages where the HG lived. I would think that Stoke Park is part of the NP defence as the stop line appears to be 1.5 miles south. I've tweaked your map and turned it into a Google Earth overlay; if you adjust the transparency so you can see the landscape beneath, you be able to spot ditches/trenches etc in the colour of the grass. There's also an excellent Defence of Britain Project dataset available at: The Defence of Britain. - Google Earth Community if you don't already have it. Otherwise, if you want to get into this sort of study in a big way, find out the identity of any army units in the area in 1940 and start going through their war diaries at TNA. Good luck! - Pete
Gentlemen, If you go to Surrey History : Exploring Surrey's Past - County Archive Search and search using the terms home + guard you will find several references to the defences in Stoke Park, including the maps which were discovered by chance in 1978 during works at Stoke House. It looks as if more maps survive and that thare also other survey drawings of other nearby features. There is some suggestion that at least some of the defences were training set-ups but I am not sure of this. Not sure if this will work but I will try and attach a screen-shot. Nope, file is too big.... CS
wow gaspirtator, and capt. sensible thansk very much they are mega helpful additions, i have all the time in the world so will go back in the bleak mid winter and have another look! will check out the overlay, and go back after the surrey couty show to see if i can spot anything else. and gaspirator, i have come across your site many times and diped in and out of it. i to walk a lot on the downs (partners parents from hurstpierpoint) and find your site very fascinating, thanks! ok, will get on it some more see what else i can uncover or dig up! cheers peeps ed
@ gaspirator, that overlay is excellent, why did i think of that! seems there is much more of the trench left than i thought, its just been incorporated into the landscape of the park as either a pathway or what i thought was a drainage ditch. more photos to follow on my day off next week......... and what was a spigot mortar site is now a bench lol anyone got any ideas how i can print off from google earth so i can take the overlay with me? dont have a laptop lol oh and by my working (from gaspirators guidance) then Rifle Pit One would have been for about 9 men, Rifle Pit two would have been for 4 men, and Rifle Pit 3 for about 6 men. so in that section of pits i saw about 19 men in total. i cant guesstimate the number of men defending the this stoke park area entirely but as a very very rough number until i can confirm or prove otherwise, about 130 men (3 rifle pits i saw = approx 19 men total, 21 rifle pits where dug, so 21 divided by 3 = 7, so i then did 7 x 19 = 133) very very inadequate guesswork i know but it gives me an idea of the men involved. this does not include the spigot mortars etc so in reality may have been more. but if you include the spigot mortar crews (3-5 men) call it 3 x 4 sites = 16 more men, the bren guns sites were perhaps 2 men ( i know this was the infantry manning figures) so 2 sites = 4 more men, 1 BAR pit (unknow number of operatives) and then 4 northover projector sites so potentially another 16 men. so in total that means that stoke aprk could have been holding a defensive force of around 170 men. quite a sizeable force then, actually, im quite surprised. wow. as gaspirator seems to be a source of knowledge, where would you think looking at the maps (i know you havent seen the ground) etc where do you think the field of fire would have extended? that would be cool to work out.
@ gaspirator, that overlay is excellent, why did i think of that! seems there is much more of the trench left than i thought, its just been incorporated into the landscape of the park as either a pathway or what i thought was a drainage ditch. more photos to follow on my day off next week......... and what was a spigot mortar site is now a bench lol anyone got any ideas how i can print off from google earth so i can take the overlay with me? dont have a laptop lol oh and by my working (from gaspirators guidance) then Rifle Pit One would have been for about 9 men, Rifle Pit two would have been for 4 men, and Rifle Pit 3 for about 6 men. so in that section of pits i saw about 19 men in total. i cant guesstimate the number of men defending the this stoke park area entirely but as a very very rough number until i can confirm or prove otherwise, about 130 men (3 rifle pits i saw = approx 19 men total, 21 rifle pits where dug, so 21 divided by 3 = 7, so i then did 7 x 19 = 133) very very inadequate guesswork i know but it gives me an idea of the men involved. this does not include the spigot mortars etc so in reality may have been more. but if you include the spigot mortar crews (3-5 men) call it 3 x 4 sites = 16 more men, the bren guns sites were perhaps 2 men ( i know this was the infantry manning figures) so 2 sites = 4 more men, 1 BAR pit (unknow number of operatives) and then 4 northover projector sites so potentially another 16 men. so in total that means that stoke aprk could have been holding a defensive force of around 170 men. quite a sizeable force then, actually, im quite surprised. wow. as gaspirator seems to be a source of knowledge, where would you think looking at the maps (i know you havent seen the ground) etc where do you think the field of fire would have extended? that would be cool to work out. No worries! Quickest way to print from GE might be to do a screen grab. Range of small arms fire was generally set at 100 yards or so except for Brens and Vickers on tripods/fixed lines. Very large force at 170 in a relatively small area; it may be that some trenches were alternative positions. I've seen orders for East Sussex that stipulate defences to be built in all advantageous positions even if the men/weapons are not immediately available to man them all. Also the spigot mortar etc were slightly later - crews might have relocated from the trenches to man them. However, it's not an exact science! I think you should definitely go and have a peek at the documents that Capt Sensible flagged up - there'll be some answers (and probably more questions) in there... - Pete
indeed i shall, i hadnt thought about that fallback use of the trenches, so the force could actually be a third if that size, just figuring on a couple of different fall back trenches etc. interesting, on my day off next week im going to go and book an apointment there to view them, quicker to book it you dont have to wait ages for them to retrieve the documents from the stores they can have it ready for your time cheers
I popped along to the park to have a look at the bunkers, very nice indeed! Have you got your hands on any more info?
I popped along to the park to have a look at the bunkers, very nice indeed! Have you got your hands on any more info? no sorry i havent had a chance with work and illness, im hoping to pop up tues to stoke park to get a few more pics of the tank ditch etc etc did you find all of them? its quite good isnt it
Thanks for an informative write up. Guildford is my home town, although I have not lived there for some time. I am wondering if the defences were because of the military presence at Stoughton?
Thanks for an informative write up. Guildford is my home town, although I have not lived there for some time. I am wondering if the defences were because of the military presence at Stoughton? could be, there was a military/civil defence presence there till the 60's i believe, during the war there was a lot of canadians and other soldiers camping on the downs aswell, guildford was a nodal point i think
