Downplaying Russia's Role

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Zhukov, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. Ryuujin

    Ryuujin Member

    I must agree iwht Zhukov that the Soviet War effort has been greatly downplayed even in my own history class there's only a brief mention of the war in the east. (I dont give my history teacher credit like c'mon who mixes up the Communist Chinese taking the long march to escape the Nationalists with both chinese armies escaping from the Japanese? Now as for lend-lease well isnt 90,000 trucks ALOT of trucks? Remember that FDR could only send obselete war materiel because the american people wouldn't allow anything else (esp. before Pearl).

    Next I have to say that Operation Overlord's effect was minimal. what was it? 1,000,000 allied soldiers vs 100,000 germans? And it took them 2 years to get to Berlin? AND germany was sending almost all of its supplies and fuel eastwards. Now imagine that without Russia, 1,000,000 allied soldiers vs 3,000,000 Germans hmm....
     
  2. smc66

    smc66 Member

    An interesting aside from the argument. A local paper recently interviewed a local British merchant seaman who was about to travel to Murmansk to be honoured by the local and national Russian government for his bravery in the convoys during the Second World War. He will be receiving his second medal from the Russian government in thanks for his brave work, however he remains unrecognised by his own government.

    I think the answer regarding the value of Lend Lease lies in one of Zhukov's statements, particularly the movement of industry to Siberia. However, successful this was (and it was) all industries moved would experience a period where production would be incapable of meeting the demands of supply and therefore need to borrow from elsewhere to cover these potential losses.
     
  3. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Ryuujin@Feb 10 2005, 04:59 PM

    Next I have to say that Operation Overlord's effect was minimal. what was it? 1,000,000 allied soldiers vs 100,000 germans? And it took them 2 years to get to Berlin? AND germany was sending almost all of its supplies and fuel eastwards. Now imagine that without Russia, 1,000,000 allied soldiers vs 3,000,000 Germans hmm....
    [post=31395]Quoted post[/post]
    Those statements are inaccurate...from June 6, 1944 to May 9, 1945, is less than one year. And the Germans had far more than 100,000 men in France...they had 50 to 60 divisions, many of them well-entrenched, which included some of the best panzer and parachute divisions in the German inventory. At 12,000 men per static division (30 of those) and up to 20,000 men per SS Panzer division, that's a lot more than 100,000 men. I suggest you get some more perspective from a number of books on the subject, including John Keegan's "Six Armies in Normandy," Richard Overy's "Why the Allies Won," Milton Shulman's "Defeat in the West," and Chester Wilmot's "The Struggle for Europe," for openers. A fuller list appears on my web page.
     
  4. Ryuujin

    Ryuujin Member

    Nevertheless with practically the full weight of the allies in the west they still took 2 years (or 1 year and a half) to get to Berlin, now imagine that Russia was neutral and supplying Germany with all the war material they needed...
     
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Ryuujin@Feb 11 2005, 09:59 PM
    Nevertheless with practically the full weight of the allies in the west they still took 2 years (or 1 year and a half) to get to Berlin, now imagine that Russia was neutral and supplying Germany with all the war material they needed...
    [post=31429]Quoted post[/post]


    I cannot understand your timescale.The Allies landed in France on 6 June 1944,were over the Rhine early in the New Year.Patton met the Russians to trap the Germans in the south at Torgau on 25 April 1945,50 miles dead south of Berlin.The Allies could have been the first to reach Berlin but it was agreed that between SHAPE and the Russians that the Russians would take Berlin.

    For the British there was also the consideration that Russian forces might roll up German forces and take Denmark.Had they done so they would have been reluctant to give up territory on the North Sea.As it was they took the Danish island of Bornholm and were slow giving it up.The Germans with large forces in Denmark and Norway did not reinforce their forces in North Germany due to indecision thinking that there might be an Allied landing in Norway.No doubt the British had to safeguard against the reinforcing of German forces in North Germany from Denmark and Norway.

    Russia was neutral from August 1939 until the German invasion of Russia in June 1941 but neverless was tied into a trade pact with Germany.Germany received vast amounts of material from Russian for their war machine.Had Russia not been invaded then presumabily this flow of material would have continued to Germany and Germany would have not fallen foul of the Allied naval blockake as it did in both world wars.However "lebensraum" in the East was Hitlers priority above all.Thankfully it led to the overstretching of his forces and his downfall and that of Nazism.
     
  6. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Ryuujin@Feb 11 2005, 05:59 PM
    Nevertheless with practically the full weight of the allies in the west they still took 2 years (or 1 year and a half) to get to Berlin, now imagine that Russia was neutral and supplying Germany with all the war material they needed...
    [post=31429]Quoted post[/post]
    I
    l'll say it again...the Allies landed in Normandy on June 6, 1944. The Germans surrendered on May 7, 1945. The Allies crossed the Rhine on March 9, 1945. It took them less than a year to drive from Normandy to the Elbe. This is basic math. It should be abundantly clear.
     
  7. Zzarchov

    Zzarchov Junior Member

    People mention the strength of the Soviet war machine without aid from the west.

    Battles are mentioned..like Kursk..a big decisive victory..more than half the tanks at Kurks were Churchill IV's.

    Russian fighters were not available in numbers to stop the luffewaffe. enter the P-40, Hurricane and P-39. If Nazi forces had gotten total air supremacy (as the allied did in the west) the Soviet Armoured forces (don't get me wrong they were good), would have suffered the same fate the german panzer forces did in the west.

    Also, the Allies cut off the Nazi oil..if the Nazi's Tiger's and KingTigers hadn't been ditched for lack of oil in the Ardennes..they would have headed through soviet forces..in greater numbers without allied bomber command grinding german factories to a halt.

    Also keep in mind that without the Allies drawing the Japanese Assault..they would have attacked during Barbarossa..keeping the Siberian troops needed to win the defence of moscow tied up.


    Soviet Union would have gone down like a stone without allied help, it could not have won the war on its own. Don't get me wrong, the Allies wouldn't have won without the Soviets on the ground tying up german manpower.

    But this isn't a one man war.


    Strange how everyone mentions russia's contribution..when was the last time anyone even MENTIONED china's MASSIVE contribution?
     
  8. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    China gets very short shrift. I get a lot of e-mails flogging me alive for not starting my web page in 1939, saying that the war had gone on a long time before Pearl Harbor, and I'm defaming the memory of the British and Canadian dead, etc....and after I tell them that the project started for the 55th anniversary of the war, in October 1995, I then remind them that if you are Chinese, the war started in 1937, with the unbelievably horrific destruction of Nanking...unless they don't count, either. That usually shuts my interlocutors up. And the Soviets got a LOT of mileage out of the P-39, much more than the Americans did.
     
  9. smc66

    smc66 Member

    Originally posted by Zzarchov@Mar 28 2005, 03:50 AM
    Also keep in mind that without the Allies drawing the Japanese Assault..they would have attacked during Barbarossa..keeping the Siberian troops needed to win the defence of moscow tied up.


    Not quite sure that was the case. The Japanese had their own plans and after the bloody nose the Kwantung army received at Nomonhan in the summer of 1939 they had decided to move south instead of north. Despite the appearance of a Soviet collapse the Japanese had a far greater respect for the Red Army than Hitler ever did.
     
  10. Michal_Dembinski

    Michal_Dembinski Junior Member

    Zhukov fails to mention one thing - morally, the USSR was every bit as repugnant as Hitler's Germany. The Eastern Front was two evil empires slugging it out.

    From the Polish perspective, the tragedy of WW2 was that US and British forces stopped on the Elbe and didn't get to liberate Europe all the way to the Bug.

    Michal from Warsaw
     
  11. smc66

    smc66 Member

    They would of returned it to the Soviet Union anyway due to agreements made in Yalta (see Czechoslovakia). The real tragedy for Poland was that the Americans were to busy trying to win the war to bother with the political outcomes. Both Churchill and Stalin were well aware that political and military outcomes were linked and that if you got your army somewhere first you'd dictate the political settlement in that place.
     
  12. Michal_Dembinski

    Michal_Dembinski Junior Member

    Originally posted by mteddy@Jan 23 2005, 02:17 AM
    So, as far as we know, about 26M Russians got killed all together, soldiers, women, children...[post=30834]Quoted post[/post]

    Time to knock this one on the head.

    1) What about the Ukrainians and Belarusians? The Germans barely got their armies into Russia. Belarus was entirely held by the Germans, and most of Ukraine. Ukraine and Belarus suffered proportionately far more war dead than any other European countries.

    2) What about non-Soviet citizens forcefully incorporated into the USSR post September 1939? The entire populations of Lithuatia, Latvia, Estonia; eastern Poland (Stalin seized HALF of this major European nation), Karelia, trans-Carpathian Slovakia and Moldavia.

    3) Stalin's post-war census had to cover up the multi-million deaths caused by the collectivisation famines in Ukraine and elsewhere, the Purges and the Gulags. The organisers of the last pre-war census were killed after they'd done their work. How convenient to ascribe several million killed at the hands of their own country to the work of the invaders

    4) Stalin and his leaders did not care a toss about the fate of their soldiers. There was no democracy, no free press, so Red Army soldiers were often thrown ill-prepared into minefields, withering artillery and machinegun fire... if they broke, they'd be dealt with by the NKVD troops at their backs.

    Let's not talk about the 'sacrifice of the Russian people'. Let's rather talk about the Russian people being sacrificed by an evil and vile system and its inhuman leadership.

    Michal from Warsaw
     
  13. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Originally posted by Michal_Dembinski+Mar 28 2005, 11:39 PM-->(Michal_Dembinski @ Mar 28 2005, 11:39 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-mteddy@Jan 23 2005, 02:17 AM
    So, as far as we know, about 26M Russians got killed all together, soldiers, women, children...[post=30834]Quoted post[/post]

    Time to knock this one on the head.

    1) What about the Ukrainians and Belarusians? The Germans barely got their armies into Russia. Belarus was entirely held by the Germans, and most of Ukraine. Ukraine and Belarus suffered proportionately far more war dead than any other European countries.

    2) What about non-Soviet citizens forcefully incorporated into the USSR post September 1939? The entire populations of Lithuatia, Latvia, Estonia; eastern Poland (Stalin seized HALF of this major European nation), Karelia, trans-Carpathian Slovakia and Moldavia.

    3) Stalin's post-war census had to cover up the multi-million deaths caused by the collectivisation famines in Ukraine and elsewhere, the Purges and the Gulags. The organisers of the last pre-war census were killed after they'd done their work. How convenient to ascribe several million killed at the hands of their own country to the work of the invaders

    4) Stalin and his leaders did not care a toss about the fate of their soldiers. There was no democracy, no free press, so Red Army soldiers were often thrown ill-prepared into minefields, withering artillery and machinegun fire... if they broke, they'd be dealt with by the NKVD troops at their backs.

    Let's not talk about the 'sacrifice of the Russian people'. Let's rather talk about the Russian people being sacrificed by an evil and vile system and its inhuman leadership.

    Michal from Warsaw
    [post=32656]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]To be fair to the Russians, or Soviets as they were known back then they had been maltreated for Centuries by their rulers. Stalin wasnt the only one who sent the Red Army into War ill-prepared. In point 4 above substitute the word Tsar for Stalin.

    Your point about the Ukranians and the Belorussians is right but in 1941 it was all one country, the USSR. Fair enough the figure quoted may be in dispute but what is not in dispute was that the USSR was fighting for its life, that the Third Reich intended to destroy the USSR as a nation and that all its peoples, be they from Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan or whereever, were classed as inferior by the Nazis and that they would all have been enslaved. Yes the provinces of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic States were completely occupied by the Nazis and widespread suffering and misery ensued for the civlian population, but the Red Army comprised of Soviets troops from all over the USSR and it wasnt just one or two ethnic groups that were scrificed by Stalin to save the Communist Regime. Stalin didnt give preferential treatment to the Russians in his army, he sacrificed them all equally.
     
  14. Michal_Dembinski

    Michal_Dembinski Junior Member

    Originally posted by Zhukov@Jan 7 2005, 12:15 AM

    You clearly know nothing about Russia's history. You've been told that "Communism is bad", and that's how you formulate your subsequent opinions, without ever bothering to check them out,
    [post=30473]Quoted post[/post]

    Communism IS BAD! Goodness, we've lived with it here for 45 years - it's an utterly terrible system - stupid and cruel. Ask any Pole brought up under Stalinism.

    Michal from Poland
     
  15. Michal_Dembinski

    Michal_Dembinski Junior Member

    Originally posted by Gotthard Heinrici@Mar 30 2005, 12:51 PM


    Your point about the Ukranians and the Belorussians is right but in 1941 it was all one country, the USSR.
    [post=32714]Quoted post[/post]

    The Baltic states were, in June 1941, part of that 'one country, the USSR'. My mother (then aged 13) and her family, deported from Eastern Poland, lands seized by Stalin in September 1939, were citizens of that 'one country, the USSR'. There were at least 15 million Soviet citizens that had been forcibly incorporated into USSR between September 1939 and June 1941.

    And while Germany has acknowledged its wrong-doing, and apologied countless times, paid war reparations and generous benefits to its victims (such as my 83-year old aunt, who survived Auschwitz), Russia has never even said sorry. I've seen German Chancellors from Willi Brandt to Gerhard Schroeder weeping at the Umschlagplatz. I've yet to see the slightest hint of regret from any Russian leader.

    Michal from Warsaw.
     
  16. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

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  17. Perf

    Perf Junior Member

    I'm new here but i would like to add this = Had the russian not worn down the german army to the point it did ! Normandy would had been very very tough , as it was the germans guarding normandy beach were young and very old with little experience. The soviet already had kill Germany most elite and experience soldiers. not to mention thounsands of trucks, tanks, artillery lay in ruin in soviet fields.
     
  18. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Welcome to the forum Perf and I hope you enjoy your time here.

    From this post, I am sure the next few days should be interesting.
     
  19. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I had only joined this forum 2 months ago and as yet had not read this topic. I must congratulate all contributors on their exemplary behaviour towards Zhukov during his stay. I am sure he would have received his reward on other sites.

    Having said that, Zhukov had some relevant points of view however his fire storming of the forum was not reciprocated in kind. He was also most articulate in his presentation which leads me to believe he has been pressing (not debating) his point of view in countries other than the USSR or Russia for some considerable amount of time and is not used to an even handed debate.

    This seemed to be evident with his reference to not having time to deal in full with the posts of interested members.

    Whilst it seems Zhukov (sadly) has not had the time to participate further, it seems to me that there were quite a few areas that could have gone further.

    The “Lend Lease” inventory contributed by Gerry Chester which I had seen previously is a monumental array of life blood (ignoring manufactured military hardware) materials to the population who were ordered to scorch their earth in retreat.

    Besides the every day sustenance for the fighting force in food, clothing & medical supplies, “Lend Lease” supplied the start afresh “raw” components required to manufacture everything from fodder, vegetables, and clothing and also to repair, renew & generate war material.

    A figure of 800,000,000 lbs of basic railway equipment enabled repair, or generation of rolling stock and repair of locomotives and track laying equipment destroyed by the USSR in defence of their retreat & similarly by the Germans in theirs.

    Another astounding figure of 1,180,000,000 lbs of copper and brass product was included for behind the scenes manufacture that they did not have to produce themselves in the short term.

    Other items were 8,000,000 lbs of welding rods, 180,000,000 lbs of plate and armour plate that would have utilised in making many well known pieces of equipment.

    I would suggest there are members new and old who would like to elaborate further on many of the points covered here previously.
     
  20. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Perf@Aug 2 2005, 10:20 PM
    I'm new here but i would like to add this = Had the russian not worn down the german army to the point it did ! Normandy would had been very very tough , as it was the germans guarding normandy beach were young and very old with little experience. The soviet already had kill Germany most elite and experience soldiers. not to mention thounsands of trucks, tanks, artillery lay in ruin in soviet fields.
    [post=37182]Quoted post[/post]

    Perf, welcome to the boards. You'll enjoy it here. Do tell us about yourself! :)
     

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