Dunkirk/Burma Veteran's Service Records - Need some help!

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by PackRat, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Hello all,

    I've been working through my grandfather's service records and have managed to translate a fair bit thanks to the superb resources on this site. There are a few areas where I'm stuck though. I've posted some excerpts from the records along with my interpretation, and any help on deciphering them would be very much appreciated.

    A quick overview of his service:
    • Joined Territorial Army in April 1939, posted to 364 Battery, 139th Field Regiment RA
    • Called to Colours August 1939, overseas with BEF April 1940 and evacuated from Dunkirk
    • Posted to 130th Field Regiment in August 1940, embarked for service overseas January 1942
    • Served in India/Burma from 1942 until August 1945
    The tricky bits I'm hoping for help with are (images have hopefully attached below):

    Image 1 (bottom of Service and Casualty Form B103-1):

    Looking at (f) (3) and (4), it looks like 'Overseas Service 2 yrs 294 days', although on form B200B it states that he was with the BEF in France for 54 days and then in India for 3 years, 237 days (from 05 Jan 42 to 29 August 45). That's a big chunk of time missing, so any idea why there is a discrepancy? Did they subtract sailing time, or time on 'X' list, or was it calculated some time in 1944 for the 39-43 Star award perhaps? And what does it say in (f)(4), ending in '27C'? Both lines seem to be part of the same entry (with a signature and stamp on the right from the Records Office, O2E ALF SEA, but no date).

    Image 2 (Form B102):

    4. Regiment or Corps: RA (FIELD) 260 - What is the '260' here? It doesn't match the regiments he was with, so is it a general identifier for the field artillery?
    5. Nature of Engagement: TA (N) - What is the bracketed 'N'?
    10. Industry Group: RS
    11. Occupational Classification: 172-29
    - What do these two entries refer to?
    15. The entry that looks like 'O/S 2/294 2 SEP 1944' - What might this be?
    B. Service Trade - What do the large 'AVAILABLE' and 'PF' stamps mean?

    Image 3 (Form B103 Part II):

    I'm struggling with this whole page!
    • The first entry in particular, which seems to start "Granted HMA..." and has two dates, 14/16.8.43 and 19/22.8.43. Any idea what this says? And what is the number before the slash on the date, the hour on the 24hr clock perhaps?
    • Is the next entry "Interposted to RHQ"?
    • The 39-43 Star Award dated 15.6.44 makes sense, but what is the stamp following that: "LEAVE WITH L..."? The date 6/24.10.44 seems to refer to it.
    • Then the last two entries on 29/7/45 are hard to read. Here's my interpretation but I'd be grateful for any corrections and explanations of what it might mean:"Relinquishes appt of L/B [indistinct] reverts to Gnr pending repat Reclassified Class IA". "SOS [indistinct] TOS Ind Comd on [indistinct] HBTD for repat UK [indistinct] by O2EALFSEA". The first line refers to giving up his Paid Acting Lance Bombardier rank, as the rank entry switches back to Gunner at this point. The rest seems to be talking about repatriation to the UK, but can anyone clarify it?
    Image 4 (rear of B103-1):

    A few words in this that I can't work out:
    • Evacuated to U.K. ??? BEF - What's that word before BEF? On his B200B the entry is written as "Evacuated from B.E.F."
    • He seems to have ended up in the 67th Medium Regt for 2 weeks after Dunkirk, before rejoining his unit (364 Battery 139th Field). What is the 'Place' entry for this, something-field perhaps? And what might have happened here, were evacuated troops attached to whatever regiment was convenient until things could get reorganised?
    • He gets posted from the 139th to the 130th (494 Battery) in early August 1940 (according to this Wikipedia article: "As an experienced unit, the regiment provided a cadre to 130th Fd Rgt to impart that experience", which would explain the posting) and is then appointed Driver in charge with effect from 5.12.41 and local unpaid lance-bombardier. Is that word 'local', and if so what does it mean in this context? And again, what is the 'Place' for this? I think the 130th were somewhere in East Anglia at this point.
    • What is the 'Place' entry after 'Embarked for service overseas'? Field?
    • What might the 'Granted S.P.P.' (which is dated 02/09/1942) refer to? Something relating to his temporary rank of Lance Bombardier?
    • And the final entry on that page, which I think is "Appointed unpaid and paid acting lance-bombardier"... can anyone explain why/how you could be both?
    That's a lot of questions I know, but thank you very much for your patience and help.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
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  2. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Welcome to the forum.

    Re your first image - I’d suggest the entry was made in 1944 as the services planned for an ordered demobilisation. I would hazard a guess and go further and say it was likely made 2nd September 1944 as per an entry on his B102.

    The other wording is A & S 27C (Age and Service Group 27 C) which is his demobilisation group - based on his age and length of service. There was a demobilisation group “calaculator table” used for that purpose.

    You are asking a lot of questions so I will have to return to this later but in the meantime hopefully other members will chip in.

    Steve Y
     
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  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Re Image 2 - an edited version of the Central Registry Index Card - a lot of the entries are in “code” or clerks “shorthand”

    Your references -

    4. I’ve seen that stamp on other RA B102 so it appears to be a generic code.

    5. N is likely an abbreviation for National Service Act to signify he was called up under 1939 National Service Act rather than enlisted as a volunteer.

    10. Employment code but can’t interpret further.

    11.Same as for 10.

    15. Refers to your A & S query on image 1

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
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  4. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Packrat,

    Much like Steve Y, I'm struggling for time right now. However, you are correct in regards the repatriation page. HBTD is Homeward Bound Transport Depot or something like that. Here is a link that explains much of this:

    Part 1
     
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  5. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Image 3

    1.HMA is Higher Messing Allowance and TA is likely Travel Allowance. I’d suggest it either covered 2 short periods of leave or 2 periods of independent travel between bases. Number 47 is likely the number of the unit order in which the entry was recorded.

    2.Correct

    3. LR?A - can’t make out third letter but others likely Local Rate ? Allowance

    4. Queried words appear to be “Unit” then “Proceeding” then “Ceases”

    Steve
     
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  6. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Various queries -

    1. “Ex” meaning previously in this context - a common abbreviation on a service record

    2. No knowledge where the unit was located but it looks like Charfield to me? Attached there for reasons as set out in your last sentence.

    3.Mutiple queries under this bullet point-

    Driver I/C means Driver internal combustion to differentiate it from a driver of horses.

    In simple terms local means that he holds the rank solely while in his current unit and would revert to his substantive grade if posted elsewhere.

    Location may be field but not 100% sure.

    4. Field is correct

    5. Service Proficiency Pay - from other records appears to be a pay rise after 3 years active service.

    6. May be a clerical error or what you are presumably reading as a U & P is more likely U/P ie U/P (unpaid)/A/L/Bdr (Acting Lance Bombardier

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
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  7. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    This is wonderful stuff and it's really starting to fill in some blanks, thank you very much Steve. The detailed knowledge the members of this forum share is incredible!

    That link you posted is fascinating, bamboo43. The vast organisation required to get millions of people home from various theatres is something I'd never given a lot of thought to, and those documents really bring it to life.
     
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  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Who was he with at Dunkirk?
     
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  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It looks as if the entry simply says 'Evacuated to UK ex BEF'.

    During their time with the BEF, 139 Field were GHQ Troops attached to 3 Corps. Oddly and completely in conflict with normal security considerations, their 'Arm of Service' serial actually was '139'.

    3 Corps 139 RA.JPG

    On this Morris Commercial gun tractor, the 3 Corps fig leaf sign is also visible.

    As his record shows him disembarking on 11th April 1940, it looks as if he was with the rail party rather than the vehicles which left on 7th April. They had been at Tetbury.

    P2090988 (2).JPG
     
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  10. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    He went out to France with 364 Battery, 139th Field Regiment RA. Having a look on the National Archives search engine it seems that WO 166/1551 and WO 167/506 might have relevant information on the 139th for the period he was with them, but I've never used the archive before and I'm not really sure if that's right or if there might be more. Do you have those in your collection by any chance? I'm particularly interested in his time at Dunkirk as he left me with a few personal anecdotes of his experience that I'd like to tie in with the records if possible.

    He seems to have ended up in the 67th Medium Regt for 2 weeks after getting back from Dunkirk before rejoining the 139th, and I'm trying to work out where they were at the time - the 'place' entry is in my 4th image attached to my original post and I can't make it out. Steve Y has suggested Charfield as a possibility.

    He was posted out to the 130th (494 Battery) that August, and eventually went out to India/Burma with them in early January 42.
     
  11. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Fascinating document and photo, thank you very much for posting those Rich. Tetbury fits with an article I found here, and the date fits exactly too for the rail party: on his B200B there is an entry "Proceeded o/seas" dated 10.4.40, and the Military History Sheet section lists BEF service starting on 10.4.40. I've got a few questions on that sailing schedule document if you have time:
    • What is it taken from?
    • What does the 'A' before 'Fd. Regt.' stand for? I haven't seen that before. Is it just 'Artillery'? And what was the L.A.D.? Is that the Light Aid Detachment from the REME?
    • On the road party section, what is the column between vehicles and sailing date that looks like M/cs.? Were they the mechanics from the L.A.D.? (if I've got the acronym right?)
    • A slightly obscure and off-topic question: why was there a distinction between the road and rail party? Was the road party responsible for moving the vehicles/guns etc. in advance, with the bulk of the men moving to the embarkation port by rail with their personal kit and arms? What was the reasoning behind splitting the units in this way for embarkation, as I'd assumed that an artillery regiment had enough motor transport for all of its men and equipment and could have moved as one?
    • Is there any information on the ports/ships they used on this document? On that Wikipedia article I linked to the ports are stated as Southampton and Le Havre - is that right?
    Thank you again for this great find.
     
  12. lionboxer

    lionboxer Member

    The HBTD is Homeward Bound Transit Depot. I have my fathers kit bag of the time showing the draft number and the code letter for the ship he came home on.
     
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  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    M/cs = Motorcycles

    TD
     
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  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The entries are taken from National Archive file WO193/10. This is a Director of Military Operations file and is merely a summary of troop movements. It seems to have been kept for statistical and planning purposes and I suspect that this explains the significance of the division between road and rail parties. They needed to know how much space was being taken by vehicles and manpower.

    Bearing in mind that "20 Miles in hour" was considered a cracking pace for vehicle movements and that some gun tractors had a top speed lower than this, it made sense to send the minimum manpower necessary with the convoys, in terms of accomodation and rationing. Rail transport was probably faster than it is today.

    The 'A' indicates 'Army Field Regiment'. This is because they were an 'Army' (GHQ) asset and not forming part of a corps or division. I don't know if there were any actual differences in establishment.

    The 'LAD' is indeed the light aid detachment attached to the Field regiment to deal with repairs that did not require passing back to Field Workshops. No REME at this stage of the war though, they were Ordnance LADs and workshops.

    The M/C s are motorcycles. For some reason these were not counted as 'vehicles'. This is quite common in record-keeping of the period. Motorcycles had a substantial rôle. Artillery were responsible for marshalling their own convoys so many were used for this purpose - closing junctions and then passing the convoy to begin over again. In addition, wireless and line communication were not always reliable so motorcycle messengers were frequently used for passing orders.

    Southampton was a major port for troop movements to France - these were sent via the Western ports of Le Havre and Cherbourg in many cases. Battalion war diaries will give more detail.
     
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  15. lionboxer

    lionboxer Member

    Not wishing to hijack Packrats topic but are there lists of the drafts and ships used in the repatriation process? I know of the W/S convoys going out and wondered if there was something similar on the homeward journey?
    Lionboxer
     
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  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I have a copy of the WO 167 file already. You can have this for free if you order the WO 166 files from me. Drop me a private image if you are interested.

    Here's a few pages covering his units arrival in France.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the excellent and detailed explanations, Rich.

    That diary looks like exactly what I'm after, Drew, I'll drop you a message now.
     
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  18. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Just a note on this photo you posted of the captured Morris from 139 Field Regt with bullet holes in the door, Rich.

    The first line of pencil wording on the back of the photo seems to be Bei Merville (‘At Merville’ in German). I'm working through the 139th's War Diary for Apr-Jun 1940 (thanks Andy!) and found an entry that mentions one of the Regiment's Quads coming under machine-gun fire in that area, wounding a 2/Lt. (later killed when the ambulance carrying him was hit by shell-fire). I've posted the page below, it's about half-way down.

    It's a bit of a stretch to conclude that the Quad in the photo is the very same one mentioned in the Diary, but an interesting connection anyway.

    139 27May 40.JPG
     
  19. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It certainly shows that the location is probbaly correct.

    Silley is buried at Outtersteene Comunal Cemetery.

    Casualty

    I have another image of a 139 Field Quad but it looks to have been damaged by shellfire although we can never be sure if they were destroyed to prevent capture.
    M-C 139 Army Field Regt..JPG
     
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  20. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Another interesting photo to add to my research notes, thank you.

    Could you tell me what the plate fixed to the front of the Quad next to 139 means? On this photo it's 'Ac' on a square plate, on the other image it looks like '5/8' on a round plate.
     

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