English Casualties in Ville-sur-Ancre, 20.05.1940

While 7 RWK (and 6 RWK) were not far away at Doullens, the Regimental History of the Royal West Kents makes no mention of Ville-sur-Ancre, nor indeed of the river Ancre. As an ill equipped TA battalion, I think it unlikely that they would have had any reconnaissance vehicles except carriers.
Chris

 

I agree. I studied the organization table of a british infantry battalion and it seems unlikely to me that these two recon cars belonged to such a battalion. At the moment it is indeed more likely thate these two cars were french. No answer from Ville-sur-Ancre yet, unfortunately.

By the way - yesterday, I was studying the surviving I-c reports (enemy situation) of XIX. Armeekorps and stumbled across this document. A brief report on the captured commander of the 7th RWK. He refused to make any statement.

 

On the same day (afternoon), Panzerregiment 1 encountered the 7th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment south of Amiens. There is a brief report about the commander's capture. He is described only as a colonel. On the internet, I found a Lieutenant Colonel R. Gethin listed as the commander of this battalion. Does anyone know his first name? He seems to have returned after the war and exchanged letters with some of his German opponents.

 

luckystrike23,

It is Ronald.

See the linked document (held in Texas, USA) about his actions 20/5/1940 @ 'near Amiens': https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu.../64e6a291-4d20-4155-be64-9f4792ab3786/content

He wrote:

Scroll down to near the end: BBC - WW2 People's War - Gordon Bourner's War Chapter 3

I assume you are aware of an old thread where he appears: military cross

 

Thanks. Wondering why they linked Rommel to this action. He was not even close to Amiens on 20.05.1940. From a German perspective, it appears that a platoon motorcycle riflemen (Krad-Schtz.Btl.1) accidentally clashed with the Sussex men in Saleux and got into serious trouble. First, a light platoon from Panzeregiment 1 was sent to provide support, followed by the entire (light) 5th Company. The Sussex men had no countermeasure against the panzers, althoug only Panzer I and II. The anti-tank rifles occasionally hit their targets, but were ineffective.
Are there any officer files in the British archives where one might find a photo of Genthen?

 

My understanding is that photos were not officially taken and added to their personal file. Most officer photos come from officially taken photos e.g. medals awarded; entries in regimental journals, including sports matches and those that they commissioned themselves whilst serving.

I suspect he has middle names so searching with "Ronald Gethen" may not work.

Probably born @ Ardwick, Lancashire 14/5/1896 and died in Sussex 1984. No immediate trace of an obituary or funeral, nor any photos online.

There is a regmt association and an online museum: Museum | The Royal Sussex Regiment The museum had to relocate and nowt found quickly for where it went!

A number of WW2 films: Collection 797 – Screen Archive South East

 

Perhaps you should check this out

 

There is a "Somme & Bresle Battle" Facebook page and it includes two photographs which apparently show 7th Battalion. Presumably during the winter of 1939-1940. One shows the officers with presumably Gethen seated centrally and the other, the Sergeants, with the C.O. beside the R.S.M. That it is him would be dependent on him having been with the battalion from mobilisation. The war diary would confirm this.

Somme and Bresle Battle

 

Thanks. These photos were taken a few weeks later when 10. Panzerdivision fought at Amiens during the Phase 2 of the French Campaign. Panzerregiment 1 lost no panzers on 20.05.1940 and had only one casualty by infantry fire.

 

Thanks. I found Gethen on MyHeritage. I wrote to the owner of the family tree. Let's see if he responds.

 

"One estate includes a grave of the fallen German panzer commander and these two burnt-out reconnaissance vehicles. Unfortunately, the location and time are not specified, but the vehicles would fit the description perfectly."

The two AMD 35 have very little in the way of unit markings - a mixed blessing since that eliminates quite a few units - and I think I could decipher one vehicle matricule as M 7550 (although this is open to alternative interpretations based on the difficult angle and resolution) and the other seems to start M 7???.

To further add difficulty, the landscape is without identifying features, but does at least eliminate towns and woods etc.

I will look at the AMD 35 I have from ebay scans and consult the internet and a book or two with Christian's 5e RAM in the mix and see if we can get any closer to adding / eliminating these two from the area.

Nick

 

Thanks.
I think there is a good chance that these are the two vehicles at Ville-sur-Ancre.
The photos come from the same estate as the grave photo of the German panzer commander, the models would match the description, and it appears that they were burned out. According to the description, the vehicles were set on fire with hand grenades after the battle. Here are the numbers:

 

The AMD 35 are almost certainly M 7550 and M7551 (later production models with the vented roof hatch, and both fitted with wheel arch stowage boxes), and although there are not many photos of them it's fair to say their turrets do not show the characteristic block capital names found on the AMR 35 of 5e RAM - CLAIRVOYANT, CRI DE GUERRE, BRULEUR etc. This doesn't mean they are not from that unit: the names could have been erased by the fire, and it seems there is no definitive list of the AMR 35 in service with 5e RAM - it just makes it harder to confirm or otherwise.

I had a decent look at the photos you posted and of those in my files and online, and I could not see any unit insignia, nor vehicle name, nor a peloton marking such as a playing card symbol (sometimes seen on the rear door that always seems be open in photos!), nor any turret numbering.

5e RAM appears to have done a its fighting earlier in the campaign and then south of the Somme around St Valery en Caux, and most casualties seem to have occurred in those two areas, however I was unable to get to a JMO for the unit. If the location of the wrecks is suspected, then a search for French casualties could be done based on the date and names of the villages / towns around the area and potential candidates located for the AMD 35 unit.

Another photo found online (perhaps showing M 7550 but it could easily be 7950!) shows a railway line in the background, running parallel with the road but some distance away - but since the ID of the AMR 35 in the photo is problematic, I would suggest this may not be relevant.

Good luck with your research, Nick

 

Thanks for your detailed response. Could you post the photo with the railway line? According to the description, there was the Albert - Amies railroad next to the road. The reports do not clearly indicate where exactly the two recon cars were taken out. It could well have been next to the railroad tracks.
I had also thought about searching for fallen French soldiers in Ville-sur-Ancre. But I hadn't done anything yet, as I was still hoping for a response from the village. How could I do that?

 

I think I'm now very close to the original question. It appears that the dead from the two reconnaissance vehicles were assigned to the neighboring village Buire-sur-l'Ancre. There is even a memorial there.
5e groupe de reconnaissance de division d'infanterie — Wikipédia
So the two cars were probably taken out on the Albert-Amiens road. I will contact that village as well.

 

Thank you for keeping us in the loop !

 

That's good news - 5e GRDI is more likely based on the lack of markings as that unit (and others) has not been associated with a particular insignia or style of marking. This is the problematic AMR 35:




and above is a comparison of the Matricule marking. There is room for interpretation as I don't have photos of an AMD 35 with the matricule M 7950 and there are few visible features to compare on the burned vehicles themselves. I post also the photo of M 7551:



No railway visible here, but perhaps it is behind the photographer! All copyrights etc. to the ebay seller who posted the photos online.

Please post the names of the crew members who were killed in honour of their service.

Best regards, Nick

 

Thanks.
I think the second photo was taken looking north, just like mine.
Here you can see a picture of a monument erected in honor of the two fallen French soldiers. It is located between Buire-sur-l'Ancre and Dernancourt, probably at the very spot where the two fell.
5e groupe de reconnaissance de division d'infanterie — Wikipédia

Lt. Garnier is part of a MyHeritage family tree. I wrote to the owner, even though, unfortunately, you rarely receive a reply.

 

You may have already been aware of Lt Garnier's Légion d'Honneur :

GARNIER (Jacques-Emile-Germain), lieutenant, class of 1933, at the Melun recruitment: model of conscience and spirit of duty. Platoon leader of A.M.D., distinguished himself by his courage and energy during operations in May 1940, in Holland, Belgium and on the Scheldt. Attacked in front of Buire-sur-Ancre, on May 19, 1940, by significant armored forces, did not hesitate to stand firm. Died, mortally wounded, in his A.M.D. during an unequal fight, giving the example of a perfect spirit of sacrifice. Was cited.

and the circumstances of the 2 AMD 35:

Lieutenant Garnier commanded a peloton (platoon) of AMD. Mdl-chef Sagnes was one of the commanders of the Garnier peloton.
Late on May 20, the GRDI launched reconnaissance missions on Abancourt and Bantigny, without encountering the enemy. Mdl Dajean's group was left on watch at Cuvillers. At Buire-sur-Ancre, Garnier's AMD platoon engaged a tank formation. A shell pierced the turret of the first armoured car and exploded, killing Lieutenant Garnier and Mdl-chef Sagnes, who was acting as gunner (he had lost his AMD two days earlier).

Jacques Emile Germain GARNIER
Mort pour la France le 20 mai 1940 à Buire sur l'Ancre, (Somme)

Louis Paul Emile SAGNES
Mort pour la France le 20 mai 1940 à Buire sur l'Ancre, (Somme)

and now we know the identity of the two AMD - M 7550 was Lt. Garnier's vehicle, M 7551 was another car of the peloton (I think the normal size of a peloton was 3 cars, but this changed due to operational need and vehicle casualties)

A photo of a member of 5e GRDI (possibly captured around Lille)



There is not much information online regarding 5e GRDI and my usual sources have just a couple of posts - the info from which I have posted here (from French via google Translate).

There is this, however this is a trip to the archives as it doesn't appear to be online:

5ème groupe de reconnaissance de D. I.

CoteGR/34/N/520/5-GR/34/N/520/6

Période1939 - 1940

FondsArchives de la Guerre (1920-1940): Tome 4 : Journaux des marches et opérations des corps de troupe (1622-1980) - GR 34N

Lieu de conservationMinistère des Armées - Service historique de la Défense (SHD)

Extrait de la notice

…5ème groupe de reconnaissance de D. I.…

• Document d'archives
  

Good luck! Nick

 

Thanks for posting this. Yes, I searched for Lt. Garnier and found the text as well. The action took place between 09.00 and 10.00 am in the morning. Not later. The fight itself is somewhat mysterious. Near Ville sur Acre, he put a German Panzer II tank out of action. This is certain, because the village is listed in the German casualty report, which are very accurate, and the grave of the German commander was also located there. I thought that the two recon cars had also been destroyed there, but the photos show that they must have continued on their way. Where the monument stands today must be where their fate met them. According to German reports, they were immobilized by machine gun fire, and the crews then continued the battle on foot. As I said, it's all a bit mysterious. But at least I now know who these two vehicles belonged to.