Ernest Illingworth 56th Recce Regt

Discussion in 'Recce' started by 4jonboy, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    ERNEST ILLINGWORTH

    Remembering my father Ernest Illingworth, a 56 Recce who passed away on this day 15th May 1988, aged 65. Always in my thoughts.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. grunson

    grunson Member

    In the book "The British Reconnaissance Corps in ww2" by Richard Doherty it states that 56 Recce were in Tunisia Nov 42 to May 43; Sicily July-Aug 43 and Italy Sept 43 to May 45.
    My dad's records say he was in North Africa 13/10/42 to 16/7/44 ! (1 yr+271 days); MEF (Sicily) 17/7/44 to 30/8/44 ! (45 days) and AAI (Italy) 31/8/44 to 14/1/46 ! (1 yr=137 days) :confused:.

    Excuse me for returning to an old thread, but I was wondering if your query was resolved and if so what the conclusion was. My Dad's records show the same pattern. He had a spell with 44 Recce in Italy where it seems he was on the strength of BNAF, they were then withdrawn to Egypt (MEF), and then returned to Italy where he was now considered to be on the strength of CMF (B103) or AAI (Military History Sheet on an unnumbered form).

    As CMF/AAI wasn't formed until January 1944 the British forces must have been under another command before that and I can well imagine it was BNAF. Is it perhaps simply the case that the SOS BNAF TO MEF WEF and TOS MEF EX BNAF in May 1944, followed by a SOS MEF TO BNAF in July 1944 are just a case of BNAF and CMF being considered as the same thing and the stamp not having been updated, then the other form being compiled retrospectively from the B103?

    If not, and I rather suspect 'not' is the case, what is the explanation? At least with 44 Recce it is the case that the unit was under US Fifth Army when first in Italy, then returned to Italy under the 8th Army so there is a sort of logical change. However that isn't the case with 56 Recce.
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Grunson
    you might have your wires a bit crossed there .....The Italian Campaign was designated CMF long before Jan '44 and in fact as the armies landed in Sicily in July '43 - and it became AAI ( Allied Forces in Italy) much later in 1944- owing to the fact that when the forces of 1st and 8th armies were joined under Alexander in Tunisia they became the 18th army Group 1 & 8 = 18...when the American 7th Army and British 8th Army joined in the invasion of Sicily it became the 15th Army group -7 & 8 = 15....rocket science stuff - THEN - the American 5th and the British 8th army joined to invade Italy 5 & 8 = 13 OMG -can't have that bad luck - so revert to 15th army group....but the Americans didn't like that so it became AAI long after and closer to the finish.

    Now the campaign names bearing in mind that 44th recce were attached to 56th Div which only joined 8th Army at Endfidaviile TUNISIA- which was still MEF- then they landed in Italy which was CMF with British X corps in 5th US Army - after Anzio - they went off to Egypt - MEF ....then back to Italy CMF with 8th Army and V corps
    and took a pasting at Croce and Gemmano on the Coriano Ridge finishing up near Venice..
    The only time 44 recce might have been in BNAF was passing through to go on their way to Salerno as that was 1st Army territory.
    Cheers
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    ag576.jpg

    Listed as from a member of 56 Regt and this can just be made out. The address is a tad blurred.
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Wills - Thank you -exactly my point - 56th Recce as recce unit for 78th Div landed in Italy on two different dates in September 1943 with 8th Army (CMF) from Sicily also (CMF)and fought all the way through Christmas '43 through Cassino and the Liri Valley and toward Trasimeno until the back end of July - and along with 56th Div and 44th recce of X Corps from Tunisia (MEF) -to Salerno(CMF) went off to Egypt (MEF)returning late September for the Gothic Line battles (CMF)- possibly though I doubt it - through BNAF .
    Cheers
     
  6. grunson

    grunson Member

    Grunson
    you might have your wires a bit crossed there .....The Italian Campaign was designated CMF long before Jan '44 and in fact as the armies landed in Sicily in July '43 - and it became AAI ( Allied Forces in Italy) much later in 1944- owing to the fact that when the forces of 1st and 8th armies were joined under Alexander in Tunisia they became the 18th army Group 1 & 8 = 18...when the American 7th Army and British 8th Army joined in the invasion of Sicily it became the 15th Army group -7 & 8 = 15....rocket science stuff - THEN - the American 5th and the British 8th army joined to invade Italy 5 & 8 = 13 OMG -can't have that bad luck - so revert to 15th army group....but the Americans didn't like that so it became AAI long after and closer to the finish.


    I might perhaps have been confused by reading of 15th Army Group being renamed 'Allied Central Mediterranean Forces' in January '44 before being renamed AAI later. Mind you that was on Wikipedia...

    Now the campaign names bearing in mind that 44th recce were attached to 56th Div which only joined 8th Army at Endfidaviile TUNISIA- which was still MEF- then they landed in Italy which was CMF with British X corps in 5th US Army - after Anzio - they went off to Egypt - MEF ....then back to Italy CMF with 8th Army and V corps
    and took a pasting at Croce and Gemmano on the Coriano Ridge finishing up near Venice..
    The only time 44 recce might have been in BNAF was passing through to go on their way to Salerno as that was 1st Army territory.


    Well yes, that is how I would have imagined it too, with perhaps the possibility of being BNAF once entering Tunisia as the two armies came under joint control. However my issue is reconciling that with the service records (and I think that is the issue the OP had with 56 Recce).

    If you look in the two images attached, the first one shows a period of service in 'North Africa' when in fact the service was in Italy, then MEF which was the time in Egypt and AAI for the return to Italy.

    The second one shows my Dad being taken on strength of the CMF on arrival in Italy (sorry I missed that one before) but the 'location' is shown as NA after that point which I assumed meant North Africa (unless it means 'not applicable'). Then when 44 Recce were withdrawn to Egypt he is shown being struck off the strength of BNAF and taken on the strength of MEF, and then when going back to Italy he is struck off the strength of the MEF and on to BNAF. After that point the records show the location as CMF (AAI doesn't get mentioned on that form).

    So the questions are:

    1) Are we just talking about inaccurate clerking here with the person or persons filling in the records using NA and BNAF when they should have been writing CMF?

    2) Does the use of NA and BNAF in the service records suggest that at some stage that was correct for 44 Recce, even if it was now out of date? Incorrect entries based on continuing previously correct practice is understandable, introducing completely incorrect information less so.

    3) Would the 'Military History Sheet' have completed retrospectively from the other service records, and so 'North Africa' be recorded based on what someone thought the records said, rather than what they should have said?

    Graham
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Grunson
    It must be recognised that service records originate in the field - written - at times by people under some exhaustion - thus errors con be made - and perpetuated in their journey to the main records office in the Uk - and again - as we have seen those people in Glasgow are also under great pressure with inadequate equipment and lack of staff resulting in too many people awaiting their G'dads history - when they are so personally exact in all they do. Service records are - in the main - good guides- you should see mine - full of holes...and lost pages !
    Cheers
     
  8. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hi Grunson
    Thanks to Tom and Ron for putting me right I did sort out my dads army records. When I have time I will put the details they gave me on here. For some reason today this website seems very slow-it's not letting me read the images people are posting! Unless it's my computer of course! Sometimes I am only getting the top half of the screen appearing! Will be in touch

    Lesley
     
  9. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    The best Qualification and Record card of all time -'This officer set himself a very low standard - and failed to achieve it! I did see a TA pre induction vetting form, the employer had been asked to tick as appropriate. The gentleman a knighted countryman had made a note in the margin. 'Is this person to the best of your knowledge of sober character, he had written 'yes occasionally'
     
  10. grunson

    grunson Member

    It must be recognised that service records originate in the field - written - at times by people under some exhaustion - thus errors con be made - and perpetuated in their journey to the main records office in the Uk


    Oh I don't have a problem with there being errors in the records whatsoever. That is perfectly understandable. I was just trying to get the records straight in my head and to do that I need to identify which bits are probably errors in the records, and which bits are holes in my knowledge.

    The net is very helpful for expanding abbreviations like BNAF, CMF and MEF but not very helpful in clarifying exactly what these entities actually were.

    Thanks for the help in clarifying things.


    G.
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Grunson -
    Can agree with your point of no expansion of areas of the initials-
    it is one of those things which we lived with as we were there at the time but basically - the following is true-

    MEF = Middle East Force(Egypt to Tunisia) 8th Army
    PIAF = Palestine, Iraq Army force ( the fictitous 9th / 10th Armies)
    BNAF = British North Africa Force -Morocco - Algeria to Tunisia border 1st Army
    CMF - Central Mediterranian Force ( Sicily- Italy)Combined 1st & 8th armies

    Then there was the East African Force in Ethiopia / Somalia( 1941)parts of 8th Army
    East & South African and Indian forces

    The Force in Greece in late '44- parts of 8th Army
    ALL short of supplies - manpower et al - but we made it .
    Cheers
     
  12. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hi Grunson
    I know it's a bit frustrating about the records. I got a bit fixated on dates and MEF, CMF etc! As Tom/Ron said, the clerks were under a lot of pressure, but I expected my dad's records to say Sicily when he was in Sicily etc. etc.!
    As soon as I realised that North Africa was in the Med (doh-was never good at geography!)-it all became clearer. It doesn't really matter I suppose about the dates but I suggest you get the war diaries for 44 recce and it will help-you will probably never know where he was at any given time but the diaries have been great for me and reading up on specific books for 56 recce/78th div have been invaluable. Also thanks to Tom and Ron - what would we do without the vets on here who guide us expertly through our problems:D

    Lesley
     
  13. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Hi Grunson
    I know it's a bit frustrating about the records. I got a bit fixated on dates and MEF, CMF etc! As Tom/Ron said, the clerks were under a lot of pressure, but I expected my dad's records to say Sicily when he was in Sicily etc. etc.!
    As soon as I realised that North Africa was in the Med (doh-was never good at geography!)-it all became clearer. It doesn't really matter I suppose about the dates but I suggest you get the war diaries for 44 recce and it will help-you will probably never know where he was at any given time but the diaries have been great for me and reading up on specific books for 56 recce/78th div have been invaluable. Also thanks to Tom and Ron - what would we do without the vets on here who guide us expertly through our problems:DLesley

    Yes having obtained the records it can be frustrating, as I too found out.

    Several black holes including one major black hole.

    I even recontacted the Records office and they kindly agreed to reaccess the records and a week later I received an email saying that I had a copy of everything on record.

    Very frustrating situation, but thanks to a good friend I was able to have access to the War Diaries and see where my late fathers squadron went, which helped me understand a lot more.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  14. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Human nature unfortunately, the armed forces in their wisdom produced manuals Staff Duties and Staff Duties in the Field. The theory being that there would be a universal system, Alpha numeric filing and an index of abbreviations being part of that. What of course happens is qualified clerks and other admin types get posted on or replaced for other reasons and less qualified people start to use an internal system peculiar to the unit and them. They understand it, but when a soldiers docs are moved to the receiving unit - it is easy to imagine that when tidying and making a true copy parts that were not easy to decipher may have been omitted or incorrectly deciphered. The sure way to confirm records is to cross reference with Part 2/3 orders soldier and officer occurrences and I doubt if they still exist. Some look upon staff duties as the yawn inducing part of soldiering when in fact the system can be let down by bad staff work or just bad handwriting!


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  15. grunson

    grunson Member

    but I suggest you get the war diaries for 44 recce and it will help-you will probably never know where he was at any given time

    Sadly, having the war diaries is likely to remain an aspiration and unless something in them happens to reveal which squadron/troop he was in I guess there will be a limit to what they can tell me anyway.

    G.
     
  16. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hi grunson
    The war diaries are great-there are some members on here who do copying at only 10p a sheet-a steal I think. I didn't know which squadron my dad was in until I got the war diaries and there he was listed with his army number with all the others of C squadron! So now I know and can follow the movements of C sqn throughout the war. Have you any photos you can post-someone may recognise the squadron/troop?
    Lesley
     

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