Fighting at Night

Discussion in 'General' started by Drew5233, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    In short why did the Germans not fight at night when possible?

    I noticed in several Dunkirk books that the Germans failed to press home their advantage as night fell and it's mentioned that this was the norm throughout the war.
     
  2. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Similar thing was found by Americans:

    Commanders, Observers Discuss Enemy Tactics, Intelligence Bulletin, May 1944 (Lone Sentry)

    The German soldier does not like to fight at night, and does not fight as well at night as he does during the day. In several instances German security at night has been found to be lacking. A number of instances have also shown that the German soldier, when surprised at night, has become confused and has been an easy victim of an opponent well trained in night fighting.
     
  3. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Could it have been that the Wehrmacht relied heavily on armor, and night tank-fighting tactics weren´t exactly developed in those days?

    However, to the credit of the Nazis, it has to be said that a good deal of effort was put into the subject, at least during the late years of the war; here´s a link referring to some of it:

    http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/nightfightingpanthers/nightfightingpanthers.htm

    Also, was it only the Germans? I know the Japanese and Russians had a thing for night-fighting, but, what about the other armies involved in the conflict?
     
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Night fighting in WW2 had nothing to do with tanks. Tank sights before active or passive post war models had extremely weak light gathering abilities. I remember an article in an Armor Magazine issue from the 50s where the author speaking about M-47s said they stopped firing at 5h30pm because they couldn't see anything at all through the sights.

    In the 50s white-light and then infrared-light searchlights started being used, in the 80s passive environment light enhancement devices.

    The Germans fiddled with infrareds in 1945, but in insignificant numbers to be of any effect, even if we accept prima-facie that they were anything capabe.
     
  5. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Night fighting in WW2 had nothing to do with tanks. Tank sights before active or passive post war models had extremely weak light gathering abilities.

    The Germans fiddled with infrareds in 1945, but in insignificant numbers to be of any effect, even if we accept prima-facie that they were anything capabe.

    That´s exactly the basis for my hypothesis: German reliance on armor, which just couldn´t be used effectively by night, kept them from being good night-fighters.
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    So I assume the rest of the millions of Wehrmacht and W-SS infantry just stayed home and darned their socks while their diminishing numbers Panzer brethren shouldered the entire war, right?

    Night combat is a mess, nobody managed to fight effectively. The trrops didn't know where their leaders were, the leaders didn't know where they were, much less their troops, ranges were short, you shot at what you heard, not at what you saw, friendly fire possibilities were immense.

    That was why they attempted to turn night into day, mainly by the use of (short life) starshells. The Soviets once ammassed their air defence searchlights to illuminate a river crossing by reflecting them on the clouds (Vistula, I think) and it didn't work too well, the Sovs and others used AA guns to shoot tracer to mark zone boundaries, while the troops advanced in the middle. A terribly complicated choreography, only doable in the basis of a deliberate and carefully planned advance. Not for the faint hearted.
     
  7. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    So I assume the rest of the millions of Wehrmacht and W-SS infantry just stayed home and darned their socks while their diminishing numbers Panzer brethren shouldered the entire war, right?

    Well, since mine was just a theory among many, then give us yours at why the germans avoided night-combat if possible. There has got to be a reason why they didn´t like fighting after dark, one which I don´t think has got anything to do with Jerry´s underwear. ;)
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Everyone avoided night combat if possible, which is not to say it didn't happen. This was mostly used as an important surprise factor in starting a major offensive, something which the Germans had lost the use of doing.

    However for instance Wacht am Rhein was launched in lousy weather, with very bad visibility which amounts to more or less the same.
     
  9. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    which just couldn´t be used effectively by night


    It wasn't the only thing that couldn't be used effectively at night; artillery support could be very problematic UNLESS there had been time to zero in fire missions like defensive box barrages by day...big barrages at night like El Alamein can be seen typically where the two sides have been static for some time ;)...and of course tactical air support of ground actions was impossible at night...

    ...all of which meant that the 'umble landser had lost all his force multipliers...

    The Soviets once ammassed their air defence searchlights to illuminate a river crossing by reflecting them on the clouds (Vistula, I think) and it didn't work too well

    And of course - Monty's Moonlight ;)...but despite it's great reputation, it wasn't much cop, it was very diffuse, and logistically was a bugger to get all the searchlights necessary accumulated in position when you were trying to assemble eveything ELSE for a major attack and clogging up roads etc.....!
     
  10. ozjohn39

    ozjohn39 Senior Member

    One instance that may be of interest is that of the Seige of Tobruk.

    After Rommel had failed in his 'Blitzkreig' attempts to take the garrison he settled down into an ongoing 'seige' situation.

    The garrison Commander Maj Gen Leslie Morshead, insisted that the garrison maintain nightly "aggressive patrolling" that consisted of destroying supplies, taking prisoners and of course killing those that resisted.

    I believe that the numbers of soldiers involved varied up to about platoon size. The tactic went on nightly, all along the perimeter, for about 6 months until the garrisoin was relieved by the British.

    John.
     
  11. Gunpowder

    Gunpowder Junior Member

  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Well, since mine was just a theory among many, then give us yours ...
    By the way, I dislike the concept "if your idea doesn't work, prove yours is better". The onus of the proof is on the originator - you can't shift it on others, it falls on the originator to convince the others of the benefits of his idea.

    The garrison Commander Maj Gen Leslie Morshead, insisted that the garrison maintain nightly "aggressive patrolling"

    The Japanese seemed to prefer night fighting. And, the Japanese thought they were better at night fighting than the Allies.

    Concerning the two above, I have a few booklets by the US Army related to intelligence on the East Front in WW2 where it is related that at this small unit level Germans used to be quite active and proficient (or so they said!) at night actions. I can't find the books right now because I'm doing another house move (again?!)

    This is common light infantry work, but on the other hand, the guerillas were on the other side, and anyway mounting an operation is rather different from sending out a couple of patrols in no man's land to pick out a tongue or two.
     
  13. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    It depends on the theatre of ops as well.
    Whereas there apparently was some (successful) German fighting at night on the eastern front, the concept didn't really work e.g. in Normandy. No wonder a nocturnal attack in the Norman bocage easily turned into a total fiasco. (Like the night action of the 12SS on June 8)

    So I assume the rest of the millions of Wehrmacht and W-SS infantry just stayed home and darned their socks while their diminishing numbers Panzer brethren shouldered the entire war, right?

    Za, most SS-Divisions were armoured. And these were far from "shouldering the entire war", at least till summer 1944.
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Also, was it only the Germans? I know the Japanese and Russians had a thing for night-fighting, but, what about the other armies involved in the conflict?[/FONT][/COLOR]

    Few other references to technological night-fighting devices, Axis & Allied:
    UK Tank losses at Stadensen 14/4/45
    Night Binoculars
    German Nightvision equipment?

    Saw another set of Tabby for sale at Beltring this year, was quite tempted but it was in a bit of a state...
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Za, most SS-Divisions were armoured. And these were far from "shouldering the entire war", at least till summer 1944.

    Depending on period. Find a complete list and you'll see.

    Few other references to technological night-fighting devices, Axis & Allied:
    UK Tank losses at Stadensen 14/4/45
    Night Binoculars
    German Nightvision equipment?


    Effective night vision devices started to be used tentatively by the US in the end of Vietnam, and it only came properly of age in the 80s, with all M-1s being fitted with them and retrofitted on M-60A3s, and equivalents on other armies (Leopard II, Challengers, etc).
     
  16. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    *sorry, bit off topic*

    Depending on period. Find a complete list and you'll see.


    In % the weight of the mot. and armoured SS-Divisions was as follows:
    8.6.1940: 100% West
    27.6.1941: 100% East
    2.1.1942: 100% East
    2.8.942: 50% West, 50% East
    1.1.1943: 75% West, 25% East
    7.7.1943: 33% West, 67% East
    31.12.1943: 40% West, 40% East, 10% Italy, 10% Balkan (Italy and the Balkans being secondary theatres)
    16.9.1944: 50% West, 30% East, 8% Italy, 8% Balkan
    1.3.1945: 7% West, 93% East
    Compilation in Leleu, Waffen-SS, p. 1149f.

    Why for example was the II. SS-Panzerkorps awaiting an allied invasion in the West in winter 1942/43 when clearly no major operation could be expected there whereas in the east troops were desperately needed?
    Hitler was indeed very reluctant to deploy "his" W-SS - in fact it is quite paradox: On one hand he wanted the SS which he considered an elite to solve crises, on the other hand he wanted to conserve them because, well, he considered them his best units.
     
  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    The Germans attacked the Irish Guards near Vallelata at 11 o'clock on the night of 3rd Feb 44. German artillery opened up twice. Captured German Orders gathered later in Rome stated that there were 2 Bns and 2 special Coys against one IG Coy position alone; among troops involved were SS Reichsfuehrer.

    By the time the Bn managed to extricate itself from the situation and stragglers made their way to HQ, it numbered 270 strong. Scots and Grenadier Guards positions were also attacked.

    This German counter-attack came shortly after 1IG had carried out a night attack.
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    *sorry, bit off topic*



    In % the weight of the mot. and armoured SS-Divisions was as follows:
    8.6.1940: 100% West
    27.6.1941: 100% East
    2.1.1942: 100% East
    2.8.942: 50% West, 50% East
    1.1.1943: 75% West, 25% East
    7.7.1943: 33% West, 67% East
    31.12.1943: 40% West, 40% East, 10% Italy, 10% Balkan (Italy and the Balkans being secondary theatres)
    16.9.1944: 50% West, 30% East, 8% Italy, 8% Balkan
    1.3.1945: 7% West, 93% East
    Compilation in Leleu, Waffen-SS, p. 1149f.


    Let's see, mot., Pzgren. and Pz. are not exactly the same thing. And is distribution related to "mot. and armoured" divisions only? I thought we were talking of overall distribution of armoured and non-armoured ss divisions, that is, including infantry, cavalry, etc., some were or would like to be motorised, others never were. I'm reminded of the diverse Waffen Gebirgs Divisionen der SS or Waffengranadier divs. for instance. That was the reason I asked for a complete list, not a distribution of the armoured divisions.
     
    Heimbrent likes this.
  19. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    One can argue about the worth of the other SS units. Besides, most of these were formed only later in war, i.e. 1943 and later.
    The main force of the W-SS were the Pz.Gren.Divs resp. Pz.Divs. like 1,2,3,5,9,10,12 and probably also 16 and 17. But there as well, except for the first four, they didn't really see action before end of 1943.

    (Btw, the Waffen-something and SS-Freiwilligen-something units weren't even considered a full part of the "Order", the first being "germanic, but not SS-tauglich resp. ordensfähig" and the second not even "germanic".)
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Za, most SS-Divisions were armoured. And these were far from "shouldering the entire war", at least till summer 1944.

    [Btw, the Waffen-something and SS-Freiwilligen-something units weren't even considered a full part of the "Order", the first being "germanic, but not SS-tauglich resp. ordensfähig" and the second not even "germanic".)
    Just trying to reconcile these. Those "other rubbish" divisions even if not deserving the title Waffen-SS were still SS. In any case I am not quite following the line of argument you are trying to present, and I don't see how it detracts from the original argument. It appears to me that you are trying to portray SS divisions as entirely armoured, while I can not agree to this intention. Shouldn't we get back on topic?
     

Share This Page