General Mark CLARK

Discussion in 'Italy' started by harribobs, Feb 4, 2005.

  1. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    If there is one thing that this forum provides, it' s a diversity of material.
    Many of us have our favourite subjects.
    By bringing them together we can gain a greater depth of knowledge.

    Which reminds me that I have a book stuffed away on my shelf that I havn't read yet.
    Alexander and his Generals (McCreery and Clarke) by Gergory Blaxland
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
  2. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi Uncle T,

    I've been wondering about picking up that book by Blaxland for ages, isn't it about more than just McCreery and Clark?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Or indeed, all those Christians, on either side, strictly observing Sunday as a day of rest. :unsure:

    Via very superficial googling I quickly noted a similar amount of pragmatism was adopted within other Abrahamic religions; certainly for defence at the very least. Indeed all 3 major religions within promote the Commandments not to kill as well as to observe one day in the week as holy.

    Surah Al-Hajj - 39 - Quran.com
    To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;

    Sabbath | Judaism
    The Talmud sanctioned this decision and said that 39 general categories of forbidden works were suspended when life or health were seriously endangered, for “the Sabbath was given to man, not man to the Sabbath.”



    Other threads about Clark, TomC's first-hand opinions evident in a couple
    mark clark | WW2Talk
    Might merge a few later, they look to be on similar lines. Might not - at least one requires the tedious fixing of quotes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  4. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Me neither; I've checked my thread on the actions of the FEC, but found no indications that the Moroccan and Algerian divisions would not fight on Friday's for religious reasons. In Fact, the first attack against the Gustav Line (Mt Croce), conducted by the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division (reinforced by part of the 3rd Algerian Div), was launched on Jan 21th, 1944: a Friday.

    See: A winter in the Abruzzo Mountains - French Expeditionary Corps - Italy (21 Nov 1943 - 3 Feb 1944)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  5. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I have found no evidence to show that any Muslims - either under British or French command, declined to fight on a Fri.

    I have walked the ground at Monte Grande, Monte Calderaro and Monte Cerere and the decision to try to retain them was daft. Certainly, ownership would have allowed the Germans extensive observation southwards but so what? It was of no strategic relevance.

    It just confirms to me that Clark was a first class @unt.

    I have heard that James Holland’s new book on Cassino is going to attempt to portray Clark in a much better light. Good luck with that one.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  6. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I've never liked anything I've ever read about Clark but he was very brave during Operation Flagpole.

    Well, he routinely a revolver instead of an automatic, so that's another plus in my book.

    upload_2022-12-3_8-3-42.png

    Operation Flagpole (World War II) - Wikipedia
     
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  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Tom,
    Alexander and his Generals (McCreery and Clarke) by Gergory Blaxland
    "isn't it about more than just McCreery and Clark?"
    I will let you know.
    I haven't read it yet, just took it off the shelf and looked at the cover, it shows McCreery, Alexander and Clarke.
    I will read it over the next week or two, having become more interested by this thread.

    One thing that Clarke did was to make himself memorable.
    The Ancients from many civilisations adopted the view that "You are never dead as long as someone speaks your name".

    The Pagan Vikings in particular, apparently believed this, which is why they were so feared.
    Being remembered for violence and cruelty was easier than being good for a lifetime, hoping to become a Saint!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  8. Andsco

    Andsco Well-Known Member

    Mmm, Hitler being an example.
     
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  9. MaisyeTheLanc

    MaisyeTheLanc Press On Regardless

    Thanks to everyone for your insights and opinions. I was thinking my low opinion of Gen. Clark was hasty, but I can see I am in good company. The sad part is that I think there were more than a few Canadians, New Zealanders, Brits, Indians etc who unnecessarily became casualties due to Gen Clarks self-serving, politically motivated decisions. No doubt he was brave, but I think it takes more than bravery to make a great leader.
     
  10. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Tom OBrien, dropped you a PM
    Sent again as requested.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
  11. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    In order to demonstrate the difficulties of commanding his diverse range of troops to General Marshall I understand Clark arranged for a Guard of Honor from the diverse troops under his command: - Indians, Nepalese, Brazilians, French, Italians South Africans, Brits, Black Americans etc. Marshall, maybe deliberately , missed Clark's point and told him it was great...

    The allied troops in Italy did follow a range of religions. Lots of Muslims, and a fair number of Jews. I am not aware of any instances of any troops refusing to fight on Friday or the Sabbath.
     
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  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    It'll promote sales, because a controversial opinion is more likely to be picked up in reviews.

    Holland is promoting himself as a bit of an iconoclast. I think of him as highly as I think of the iconoclasts.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    British military humour...

    Screenshot_20221204-104451_Drive.jpg
     
  14. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Let us not forget the congressional inquiry:

    Off course, Clark got off scot free. To quote Mandy Rice Davis, ''He would, woudn't he'.
     
  15. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Clark got off largely because GOC 36 US Inf Div Maj Gen Fred Walker sided with him - not because he agreed with Clark's decision to insist on the Rapido crossing operation, but because he had a rock solid belief in the military need to obey the instructions of the superior commander.

    The tricky bit is that if total obedience is to work, the superior commander has to be competent and trusted.

    Regards

    Frank
     
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  16. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Well there's a good argument for that, as Eighth Army is a prime example of what happened when commanders felt they could treat instructions as suggestions.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  17. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Inspired by this thread I thought I'd search for any on-line Clark sources and found his so-called "diaries" here:

    Clark, Mark W. Diaries · The Citadel Archives Digital Collections (omeka.net)

    They are not exactly "diaries" as written by his aides but there are some interesting comments in the diaries for the periods before and during Op 'Avalanche'. I haven't looked further on that that, but there are some for 1944 so might be of interest to the Anzio beachhead and breakout period.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  18. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    "Dobey," GOC Malta during WWI? General DOBBIE was GOC Malta during WWII. What is the source for this anecdote?
     
  19. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    "Dobey," GOC Malta during WWI? General DOBBIE was GOC Malta during WWII. What is the source for this anecdote?
     
  20. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    That's interesting because I think Clark blamed Walker for the failure of the attack.
     

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