Gold Beach (JIG), Tides, Beach & H-Hour

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by IanTurnbull, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    Michel
    I have another source that states there was a crew of 7 in Sgt PALMERS SP "Foxholes"
    No 1 Bob Palmer; No 2 Alex Gerken; No 3 Les Giddings; No 4 Don Sadler; No 5 Peter Crookston; No 6 Harold Chapple and Driver Jack Connell. A the time there was also Sgt Broom hitching a ride as "ammunition number" whatever that means. The article is taken from the booklet commemorating EY's 50th anniversary trip back to Normandy (which is where the quotations came from in that Bristol Scout facebook page you found)
    Was this very unusual? They must have presented quite a target for the German gunners.
    Incidentally, on that trip Bob Palmer was signing autographs for French schoolchildren by the plaque on the blockhouse that commemorates his achievements. A celebrity Gunner?
    Ian
     
  2. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    Pre-planned Artillery Targets in Overlord
    Back to this question. I have been going through the Hampshires Op Order for Overlord, and it has a section on Artillery Support on call from H+90 and identifies "Yoke" targets (See attached). Could these indicate RA pre-planned bombardment targets for the infantry to be aware of? The Wood is St Come and Road area is Buhot. For "Yoke" I suppose that is just the 147th & 90th Field Regiments at that time, although officially not a part of the XXX Corps AGRA which was not constituted yet.
    Anybody have any insight?
    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  3. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    I have just noticed the following in Tim Saunders' "Gold Beach - Jig"
    "Another departure from the plan, however, had beneficial consequences. The assault force found itself too far inshore during the naval fire plan and, if they had continued, was in danger of running into the shells of the final phase of the Navy's fire plan. This necessitated the flotillas attempting to 'mark-time' for ten minutes. This, however, was easier said than done. With a tight formation and the strong current, the craft were sent half a mile to the east, away from strongly defended Ie Hamel towards a sector of the beach behind which lay a marsh. This part of the beach was, consequently, not as well-defended ....."
    I have never seen a report of the LCAs treading water for 10 mins like this. Is this accepted history?
    Thanks
    Ian
     
  4. I have been looking at this matter of timing Sgt Palmer's knocking out the casemated 75 mm gun and have reached a different conclusion, with a substantially later time bracket. There does not seem to be any justification for the timings of the aerial views stated in the podcast, and I have obtained quite different results again.

    Aerial shot Frame 3119 from Sortie US7/1742 clearly shows a long trail of smoke pouring out of the casemate:
    1310~ hrs - R677 burning - US7-1742 3119 CU.jpg

    This frame (or rather the next Frame 3120) was shot at the same time as Frame 8041 of the same Sortie (with a different camera using a different lens resulting in a different magnification):
    1310~ hrs - US7-1742 8041 vs 3120.jpg

    Frame 8043 (shot seconds after Frame 8041 and therefore also Frames 3119-3120) shows US LCI(L) 400 closing in to her new landing place a few yards behind a beached LCT:
    1310~ hrs - US7-1742 8043 - LCI(L) 400 closing new beaching location.jpg

    From her Deck Log, we know that she started to leave her previous landing place at 1234 hrs, and dropped her stern anchor at her new landing place at 1315 hrs:
    US LCI(L) 400 Landing Times - The D-Day Landing on Gold Beach, 6 June 1944 - Andrew Holborn.jpg
    Source: Andrew Holborn, The D-Day Landing on Gold Beach: 6 June 1944

    Frame 8043 must therefore have been shot moments before 1315 hrs, let's say about 1310 hrs, which is thus the upper time limit.

    Now for the lower limit. Aerial views up to and including Sortie US7/1744 Frame 4101 do not show any smoke out of the casemate at all, and must thus have been shot before Sgt Palmer's deed:

    1157-1234 hrs - no smoke - US7-1744 4101 CU.jpg

    Again comparing various aerial views, we see that US7/1744 Frames 4101-4102 were shot at the same time as US7/1743 Frame 7088:
    1157-1234 hrs - no smoke - US7-1743 7088 vs US7-1744 4102.jpg

    which itself was shot moments before Frame 7096 at a time when US LCI(L) 400 was still at her initial landing place, i.e. between 1157 and 1234 hrs:
    1157-1234 hrs - US7-1743 7096 - LCI(L) 400 at initial beaching location.jpg

    This provides us with the lower time limit of 1157 hrs.

    It is therefore safe to conclude that Sgt Palmer disabled the 75mm gun some time between 1200 and 1300 hours.

    The potential objection that tanks and vehicles could not have reached Asnelles via the lateral road before the gun had been disabled is not entirely valid, because we know that a number of tanks did pass the still active gun without being knocked out, including Lsjt Scaife's AVRE and five DD tanks of the Sherwood Rangers.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  5. David Link

    David Link New Member

    I've enjoyed reading the discussion about the 147th's run-in shoot. My father was there, as a young Lieutenant in A Troop, under the command of Tony Gregson. My father died in 1997 but wrote his memoirs before he passed away, his account of DDay can be read here:
    D-Day
     
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  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    I wish I had seen that earlier. A lot of the off cuts that could not go into Gunners in Normandy have gone into D Day Gunners a battlefield guide to artillery on the British and Canadoan beaches and landing grounds. Due for publiation April 2022 - but with a better cover than on the publicity material.
     
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  7. David Link

    David Link New Member

    Another photo from my father's collection - this was A troop, 413 battery 147th Field Regiment Essex Yeomanry on board their LCT - presumably during one of the exercises ahead of DDay. Lieutenant Peter Mitchell is circled.

    Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 07.57.55.png Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 07.57.55.png
     
  8. Scribler

    Scribler Member

    See Bredin's 'Three Assault Landings.'
     
  9. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    Scribler
    Thanks for responding to this unanswered question. I have that book & I can’t see any reference to LCA attempting to “mark time” for 10 mins. D Day landing is pp 51-53. Did I miss something? Ian
     
  10. Scribler

    Scribler Member

    Ah! I thought it was in Bredin's book. I will try and find it but I have a lot of stuff on 231 Bde.
     
  11. Scribler

    Scribler Member

    I know that a written piece of evidence is best but as a junior officer on a regimental battlefield tour in the 80s, I remember being told by Brigadier Bredin and other 2nd Devon and 1st Dorset veterans that the reason for them landing further west was the LCAs had got ahead and were running into the delayed DDs and had to 'Mark time by circling for 10 minutes'. I have, however, found this in an account by Gunner Mitchell of 147 Essex Yeo RA:

    And so we emerged, dripping, onto the beach. It was in the exact spot that we were supposed to be in, which was a credit to the LCT commander. Others were not so lucky and got swept sideways by the tide well away from their appointed place.
    Another factor was that on Jig Red there were few landmarks in the dunes that backed the beach in this sector. This was also commented on by C Coy 1 Dorset's NCO's who had exceptionally been landed in the right place.
     
  12. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    Scribler
    Thanks for continuing to nut this one out.
    There may be some substance to the theory of LCA marking time at some point although I have not seen the underlying evidence; regrettably Tim Saunders book does not carry sources.

    In fact the 1st wave LCA on JIG landed broadly on time, so if they did mark time it was because they were arriving offshore early rather than being delayed by DD tanks. But its difficult to imagine how even this could be ordered across the 20 or so Hamps/Dorsets 1st wave LCA.

    More evidence that suggests this did not happen to the 1st wave is that the SRY's DD tanks did not get launched out at sea as planned and their LCT brought them in closer to shore for a deep wade, 300+ yards out. The SRY's LCT were ordered to delay the landings and were seen moving back out to sea at one point, and their DDs eventually landed 35 mins late around H+30 so I dont think they would have interfered with the route of the 1st wave LCA.

    I have also seen Lt Col Bredin's input to the 1947 Staff College Tour and its not mentioned there, although of course thats not proof that it didnt happen

    At the moment all the evidence suggests it was the tides, weather and perhaps navigation errors that pushed them eastwards off their planned, on time routes

    Ian
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  13. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    ............I have, however, found this in an account by Gunner Mitchell of 147 Essex Yeo RA:

    Lt Peter Mitchell was a Troop Leader in "A" Troop 413 Battery Essex Yeomanry, assuming the GPO role on landing due to the serious wounds sustained by Lt Tony Gregson as their LCT disembarked its load. The photographic evidence suggests they arrived on JIG RED around 08:25 but they were due to land on JIG GREEN East so even they drifted eastwards
    Ian
     
  14. Arty

    Arty Member

    Not to mention so many lovely aerial photographs taken by the good old Yanks, proving what actually happened ie. of LCT's due on Jig Green east at H+60 carrying 147 Fd Regt, instead photographed landing on Jig Red - not one it's appointed place. Whilst LCT's also due on Jig Green east at H+60 carrying 90 Fd Regt photographed landing on King Green.

    So many confused stories from Officers and OR's alike.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2022
  15. Question for forum.
    I have found one typed account of Bob Palmer’s action that describes the obstructing SRY tanks being moved prior to his assault.
    I always like to have two sources to confirm before adding to the text of the history of the EY.
    Any thoughts ?
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Have you listened to his account recorded for the IWM?
    Palmer, Robert Edwin (Oral history)
     
  17. I have indeed - I will need to listen again but can’t recall vehicle extraction / recovery being discussed.
     
  18. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    Stephen
    There is aerial photographic evidence of at least 4 immobile (presumably "knocked-out") AFVs on the side of the Lateral RD which would have been in Sgt Palmer's way before driving forward to fire at the Blockhouse at Le Hamel West. There is also an account of a chance meeting with a member of the crew of the 3rd SRY tank knocked out on the Lateral Rd in the EY's 1995 Normandy Anniversary booklet where he talks about still being mobile enough to drive his tank out of Sgt Palmer's way. Regrettably he is not named.

    One of the disabled AFVs on the road would of course have been "A" Troop Commander Arthur Warburton's OP tank and he has left accounts of hailing Sgt Palmer to deal with the A/Tk Gun. His own account is in the 2000 EY Journal and his IWM interview although I dont think he mentions shunting vehicles out of the road.

    As you have no doubt noted Sgt Palmer has left us a number of excellent 1st hand accounts, each of which adds different details, but I am not aware of any other account containing sufficient detail by another 1st hand witness, including from his crew.

    Ian
     
  19. upload_2022-12-22_15-21-35.jpeg

    This appears to be from a discussion between Palmer and someone else - I am investigating.
    In a way it’s not important to the story and I am so short of space/words now that I may have to leave it alone.Looking at the project, 2 volumes on the EY would have been possible with the material available.

    Stephen
     
  20. IanTurnbull

    IanTurnbull Well-Known Member

    That extract is taken from an article in the EY's 1995 Normandy Visit Anniversary booklet I mention above, which was edited by Douglas Eaton, CPO of 511 Battery so it is almost certainly a discussion with him.
    Too much information is a good problem to have I think. When is your book due to be published? I am looking forward to it
    Ian
     

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