See post 45 for the link. You should apply as soon as possible, they may take months to respond. Hi Diane Fabulous! I forgot that was a Red Cross link. Thank you thank you thank you! I dare say I will be waiting a few months for a few of my enquiries as I contacted two other places yesterday that hold a lot of WW2 archives. Plenty of records to sift through to find just one name. Any information they can give me will be well worth the wait though.
I'm not sure what you mean by "it was not possible for Hitler to order wanted posters to be distributed around Italy." Why was this not even a possibility? To make this even more clearer to you, Chell, let me give you a counter example. In WW2 Britain and the USSR were very close allies. Can you imagine even for one moment Stalin ordering Churchill to put up posters of men wanted by him? Had the USSR invaded Britain at some point after the war that would have been an entirely different matter Hi Peter ... The Italian underground was an assumption on my part given his location in an Italian POW camp. So if it didn't exist in 1942, then he wasn't with an Italian underground so I will have to narrow down whether he joined elsewhere before reaching Czechoslovakia or whether he went straight there. Chell, you must understand that you can't wander around Europe and join any resistance group you wish. Members of all resistance groups had nomes de guerre, their very comrades didn't know their true identity so that they could not identify them under torture. Any stranger rolling up, particularly a foreigner, not know to the leader or the group's intelligence officer would be regarded with the deepest suspicion and probably liquidated as a precautionary measure. This would have probably been the case with Tito's partisans, the only group that your grandfather could have possibly reached from Udine. Italy was a special case in 1943, but even they tightened up in 1944. Allied officers and specially trained personnel made contact with partisans and underground groups by planned parachute drops after special arrangements and agreed passwords at secret locations. You seem to think that we are all getting confused by dates and if the dates can be sorted out all will fall into place. But I must tell you that if your grandfather escaped from an Italian camp many months before Heydrich was assassinated you would still not have a credible story. The world has changed since WW2 in a profound way. Nowadays if you go anywhere in Europe you will find English speakers at restaurants, hotels, shops from Istanbul to Helsinki. But that wasn't always so, before and during the war there were national languages and hundreds if not thousands of dialects. Very very few, even educated people, spoke or understood English, the lingua franca was French. French was taught in schools, along with German. English has only become world wide because of the Allied victory, otherwise by now the lingua franca would undoubtedly be German. I tell you this because as Paul has pointed out, there is no way that an Australian could make his way across the German Reich to Czechoslovakia, take part in a secret operation, and then trek all the way back to Italy and finally take refuge in Switzerland as a wanted man. And where did the Germans get his photo for the poster? And how would they know he had headed back to Italy? If the SOE had found out that an Australian POW on the run in Italy had somehow discovered that Czech operatives were going to assassinate Heydrich in Prague they would have been stunned and called the whole thing off, leading to a major enquiry over lax security. I do hope that you will now see this. As I have said earlier, your grandfather's story is interesting and is deserving of record as it stands, without adding an imaginary trek across Nazi Germany and occupied Czechslovakia.
Hi Paul Thanks I will definitely do that. I was thinking of the Red Cross but didn't know where to contact so thank you. I'm not sure why he was sent home from Switzerland. Would they have sent him home for a shrapnel wound to one hand? I don't know how bad it was though so if it was bad enough this could definitely have been the reason. Thanks and I will contact the International Red Cross tomorrow. I just had the idea that your granddad might actually be the man who was injured* when Heydrich - half car seat in his intestines - had a close combat fight with one of the attackers?!? They've been looking for that chap forever, so here we might just have lifted a secret that historians have racked their brains about for so many years!! *As he was apparently badly enough injured to be sent home by ze Swiss - and that can't have been because of his slight wounding at Tobruk.
To make this even more clearer to you, Chell, let me give you a counter example. In WW2 Britain and the USSR were very close allies. Can you imagine even for one moment Stalin ordering Churchill to put up posters of men wanted by him? Had the USSR invaded Britain at some point after the war that would have been an entirely different matter Chell, you must understand that you can't wander around Europe and join any resistance group you wish. Members of all resistance groups had nomes de guerre, their very comrades didn't know their true identity so that they could not identify them under torture. Any stranger rolling up, particularly a foreigner, not know to the leader or the group's intelligence officer would be regarded with the deepest suspicion and probably liquidated as a precautionary measure. This would have probably been the case with Tito's partisans, the only group that your grandfather could have possibly reached from Udine. Italy was a special case in 1943, but even they tightened up in 1944. Allied officers and specially trained personnel made contact with partisans and underground groups by planned parachute drops after special arrangements and agreed passwords at secret locations. You seem to think that we are all getting confused by dates and if the dates can be sorted out all will fall into place. But I must tell you that if your grandfather escaped from an Italian camp many months before Heydrich was assassinated you would still not have a credible story. The world has changed since WW2 in a profound way. Nowadays if you go anywhere in Europe you will find English speakers at restaurants, hotels, shops from Istanbul to Helsinki. But that wasn't always so, before and during the war there were national languages and hundreds if not thousands of dialects. Very very few, even educated people, spoke or understood English, the lingua franca was French. French was taught in schools, along with German. English has only become world wide because of the Allied victory, otherwise by now the lingua franca would undoubtedly be German. I tell you this because has Paul has pointed out, there is no way that an Australian could make his way across the German Reich to Czechoslovakia, take part in a secret operation, and then trek all the way back to Italy and finally take refuge in Switzerland as a wanted man. And where did the Germans get his photo for the poster? And how would they know he had headed back to Italy? If the SOE had found out that an Australian POW on the run in Italy had somehow discovered that Czech operatives were going to assassinate Heydrich in Prague they would have been stunned and called the whole thing off, leading to a major enquiry over lax security. I do hope that you will now see this. As I have said earlier, your grandfather's story is interesting and is deserving of record as it stands, without adding an imaginary trek across Nazi Germany and occupied Czechslovakia. Ok, as I originally replied to you. I understood what you said. I'm not an idiot and I told you I understood. As I've stated repeatedly, I get what you are all saying but you can't tell me that anything you or I say is for certain. I don't appreciate the term "imaginary" being used either. Quite an assumption on your part that my grandfather was a liar. The q's you are asking like "how would they know he had headed back to Italy?", rhetoric as they may be, cannot be answered by anybody. They are details which nobody could ever possibly answer...unless of course you want to ask the Germans that were involved. Secondly, as I have already said, I ASSUMED a long time before I gathered more specific information that the wanted posters were distributed in Italy because I thought AT THAT TIME, the assassination happened in Italy. I have made clear that I have learned otherwise since then. Also, all these assumptions that my grandfather just wandered around aimlessly until a partisan group or whoever would take him in is ridiculous. I have made no attempt to say how he got involved with underground groups. Many escapees got involved with underground groups - yes, it's in records of history that escapees joined partisan groups - so how do you explain any of them. The only reason my grandfather is being questioned is because of the assassination. Who can possibly say how he got involved. Not me, I wasn't there. Nobody can. Again, I'm sorry you feel that way but hey, feel free to have your opinion but don't make personal comments about my grandfather. Not warranted and not tolerated. Naturally I am going to bite back. There really is no need to get personal when your just questioning events. Leave the personal jabs out of it. Much appreciated.
Ok, as I originally replied to you. I understood what you said. I'm not an idiot and I told you I understood. As I've stated repeatedly, I get what you are all saying but you can't tell me that anything you or I say is for certain. I don't appreciate the term "imaginary" being used either. Quite an assumption on your part that my grandfather was a liar. Where have I said that your grandfather was a liar??? So far as I have understood, he never told you that he had taken part in Heydrich's assassination, you worked that out all by yourself and you are now totally convinced that he did. I have tried to help, but what I have said has clearly fallen on deaf ears. I shall take no further part in this, I said this earlier and I now regret that I didn't stick to it.
To all those who have given me incredibly helpful pathways to pursue in my research, Due to rude and unwarranted personal attacks I have no desire to remain on this site but I would like to say a massive thank you to all of you who gave me some great leads to further resources and some great information that has helped fill in some gaps. So, THANK YOU! It's unfortunate that there are some members of this site who, instead of trying to be helpful have decided to personally attack my grandfather but hey, there's always one who has to ruin it for everybody else. Rather disrespectful for veterans who demand so much more respect than they give. Thanks again to all of you who have been so very helpful to me. Your time in doing so has meant more to me than I can say. I know there were a few of you quite interested in this subject so if you would like to hear the results of my research as I progress through it, please don't hesitate to send me a private message (I will keep my account open for a day or two before closing it) and we can swap email addresses. With most heartfelt thanks, Chell
I've just been reading his service record on the Australian NA archives site. it states he was still a POW in Italy in April 1943 and that he later escaped to Switzerland that year. That would put him in the wrong location for Prague, unfortunately. Once in Switzerland he would have been detained and was seemingly released as an exchanged prisoner in late 1944 and sent back to Australia. It is likely the Swiss released him because of the wounds he had sustained in North Africa. CHELL please read this .and stop blaming others for your obvious confusion ..this post from PAUL REED .. PROVES once and for all that he was still a prisoner in APRIL 1943 .a year after HYDRICH was assassinated ....as i have said , I believe your grandad to have been a brave soldier to escape and reach SWITZERLAND ..its your motives that makes me question your posts ..you certainly refuse to accept the facts that other are showing you and are more knowlegable than i am that it was impossible for your grandad to have travelled to or being in PRAGUE at the times you trying to imply .. you can dislike my replies all you want ,,but truth will out ..
Chell Could I make a few suggestions to keep this on track. 1 Take time out to gather your documentation.This could take some time due to delays in receiving service/POW records etc. 2 Put a time line together as you see it, stating known facts A-Z based on known service documentation. 3 Once all info is gathered in,post on the forum ( if you can) to include documentation/photos and highlight the areas which lack detail/not backed up by documentation. 4 Make a specific request for information from Forum members regards Clive
CHELL please read this .and stop blaming others for your obvious confusion ..this post from PAUL REED .. PROVES once and for all that he was still a prisoner in APRIL 1943 .a year after HYDRICH was assassinated ....as i have said , I believe your grandad to have been a brave soldier to escape and reach SWITZERLAND ..its your motives that makes me question your posts ..you certainly refuse to accept the facts that other are showing you and are more knowlegable than i am that it was impossible for your grandad to have travelled to or being in PRAGUE at the times you trying to imply .. you can dislike my replies all you want ,,but truth will out .. Sparky Read that information again and you will find that there are two DIFFERENT dates given in those documents alone. There are other dates in the war diaries for the 2/12 battalion. Sorry but unless you are willing to do the two years of research that I have and narrowing it down to which date is the correct one, don't tell me I'm confused. You've read one date. Read them all. There was confusion in the official documents themselves.
Where have I said that your grandfather was a liar??? So far as I have understood, he never told you that he had taken part in Heydrich's assassination, you worked that out all by yourself and you are now totally convinced that he did. I have tried to help, but what I have said has clearly fallen on deaf ears. I shall take no further part in this, I said this earlier and I now regret that I didn't stick to it. Peter, Chell says here in post 13 that her Grandad told her he was involved in the Heydrich assination."We don't know anything about his time here up until he was involved with the Heydrich assassination in the Czech Republic. He said they ambushed him in his car going around a hairpin bend. After wanted posters were distributed with his (and others) face on them, he got out. Not sure if he was still in the Czech Republic at this point or if he was back in Italy". http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/34947-grandad-heydrich-2.html
Well this ended pretty much the way I thought it would. Been very interesting thou. Hang in there Chell as learning and discovering takes time.
Chell Could I make a few suggestions to keep this on track. 1 Take time out to gather your documentation.This could take some time due to delays in receiving service/POW records etc. 2 Put a time line together as you see it, stating known facts A-Z based on known service documentation. 3 Once all info is gathered in,post on the forum ( if you can) to include documentation/photos and highlight the areas which lack detail/not backed up by documentation. 4 Make a specific request for information from Forum members regards Clive Hi Clive, Many thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately I have already decided to leave the site. Regardless of who these members are, no-one should be spoken to the way they have spoken to me and I'm not the kind of person who just sits there and takes it. I have bitten back (as I do) and now I am going to be the bigger person and just walk away instead of continuing with the immature nonsense that is going on. People can disagree without getting personal but apparently two members find that concept difficult to grasp. I will be leaving my research with the people I have already made enquiries with who were provided to me by a few very helpful site members. Thanks again for your suggestion. If circumstances were different, I would have gladly done this.
What a shame that the most significant posts keep getting ignored....I'll need some more Popcorn at this rate
Well this ended pretty much the way I thought it would. Been very interesting thou. Hang in there Chell as learning and discovering takes time. Thanks Gage. Wasn't hard to see it coming was it? Ah well, thanks heaps for the help you have provided me with. Much appreciated.
Hi Chell, Please dont leave the forum there might be someone on here who hasnt seen your post yet and might hold some valuble information regarding your Grandad.I have enjoyed reading you posts and some of the replies you have recieved though some of them could have been worded a little less harshly,i think its great that someone has such a great intrest in there famliy history and i am sure your Grandad would be proud of you and i am sure if you follow in his ways you will not give up on this forum. Regards Leigh
Chell would love to know more, a recent book on the operation to kill Heydrich. The Mirror Caught the Sun: Operation Anthropoid 1942: Amazon.co.uk: John Martin: Books The Mirror Caught The Sun | Facebook Some very good reading in the book and on the Facebook page. James, have just been looking at the link you posted on the book....... and it does look like a very well written and researched addttion on the Heydrich assasination.
Report of Capt. H.J. Kroger Senior AIF Officer in Switzerland: ANZAC POW Free Men in Europe - Chapter 17 - Official Report on the AIF. A Lt. ELIOTT QX 6017 is mentioned as being recaptured. Well worth a read.
Discussion based solely on service records etc moved to here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prisoners-war/35040-norman-h-j-mazlin-pow-escapee.html#post390085
