Help figuring out uniforms, medals, badges, vehicles!

Discussion in 'General' started by Sanne, Jun 9, 2022.

  1. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    Hello,

    I am not sure I am posting in the right forum, but feel free to delete my post if I am completely off :)

    I am trying to figure out what uniforms my father is wearing, and perhaps, based on these, getting an idea of what units he was in.
    First some data:
    Name: James Spektor
    Army number: PAL/38674
    Nationality: None (German Jew, lived in Palestine, which was British mandate).

    Some of these uniforms may not be from the British army, but from the Israeli Defense Force, which my father joined after being discharged.
    I aplogise for the poor picture quality, I don't have a scanner, so these are taken with my phone from the family album.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
    CL1 likes this.
  2. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    The uniforms are British Battledress which would be standard for Palestinians serving in the British Army

    In the first photo he has a Field Service Cap - the cap badge is the General Service Corps one
    In the second again he wears British Battledress this time the post 1942 pattern, I think the patch on his sleeve is the Jewish Brigade one, from the sign I'd say "SP Coy" is Support Company and its 1st Jewish Battalion
    In the 3rd both have early war British Battledress with Field Service Caps
    In the 4th again British Battledress, he is wearing a bush hat (based on the Aussie hat but used by the British and others) with medal ribbons worn this would be very late or post war - the bush hat seems to have a triangle mounted on the front which I've never seen before, not sure if the IDF used bush hats - the triangle and also the band round the hat which looks like leather don't seem British/Commonwealth to me
    In the 5th photo the thing that jumps out to me is the 2nd ribbon which is the Air Crew Europe star - basically worn by Air Crew who flew over Europe before D-Day which seems really out of place - its definitely worth going through the other medals as they look a very impressive lot and hopefully someone can break them down
     
    CL1, Sanne and dbf like this.
  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    The first 3 images appear to be of British uniform taken on different occasions during WW2 . The 4th image appears to a post war image as he is wearing the WW2 British campaign medal ribbons. The bush hat is most commonly associated with Australian Forces but was worn by other British Army units. I have pictures of my fathers time in Palestine 1938/39 showing British soldiers in Bush Hats. As no cap badge is visible it is difficult to identify the unit he was serving in.

    In the last image of him, presumably in IDF uniform and taken in later life, he is wearing full size medals. The first medal in the top row appears to be a British gallantry award - the Distinguished Service Order - usually awarded to commissioned officers with a bar on the medal ribbon usually indicative of a second award of the medal.

    It is followed by the WW2 British campaign medals - although the second medal in the row appears to be out of sequence as 39/45 Star is usually the first campaign medal. At the end of the row he appears to be wearing 2 British General Service Medals awarded for post war service.

    Do you have any further details about the DSO and the 2 GSM - his details ought to be recorded on the rims of the GSM.

    Steve

    DSO GVI (1st Type 1938-48) Full Size Medal Loose
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  4. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    In the last image the medal on the second row, far right as we look at it is the Normandy Campaign Medal commissioned by the Normandy Veterans Association, rather than the UK government.

    normandy-campaign-medal
     
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  5. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    Wow :omg:
    I actually didn't imagine you could tell so much just based on the uniforms and medals! Thank you very much!
    So I guess this puts him in General Service Corps, which makes sense, since he was a driver.
    What assignments would a support company have? I know he also spent a lot of time disarming bombs in minefields, but I'm not sure when.
    My dad stayed in touch with a lot of other vets, so it makes sense that he would have a medal commissioned by a vet association.
    I have zero papers on the DSO, but that was the one he was always the proudest of. He received it for his services during D-Day, which were particularly gruelling, and it was given to him in an audience with Princess Elizabeth. One of the things I am hoping to achieve is to uncover any documents on those experiences.
    I do have a paper that descirbes other medals awarded. I'm attaching them to this post. However, I still don't know what they mean, so any and all help is deeply appreciated.
     

    Attached Files:

    CL1 likes this.
  6. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    Are Air Crew only pilots? I know my dad was a parashuter in the invasion of Sicily, and also in Italy. Could it refer to that? I don't think he knew how to fly a plane.
     
  7. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Air Crew would include Navigators, Bomb Aimers, Gunners, Flight Engineers, Wireless Operators and other specialists - not parachutists

    Was he born James Spektor or did he change his name at some point - Germans who joined up in the UK tended to change their names to hide their routes but not sure if that was the case with Palestine enlistment - James just doesn't strike me as a very German name
     
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  8. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    The medal wasn’t awarded to Parachutists - they would be classed as “passengers”. The medal entitlement was for air crew - that included Pilot, Navigator, Air Bomber, Air Gunner.

    IIRC It was only awarded for flights taking off from UK pre 6..6.1944 “over Western Europe” so if he was a Glider Pilot in the invasion of Sicily & Italy it would not have been awarded.

    Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility

    As I’ve said before all will be revealed in his service record as together with the DSO it is a strange entitlement for a private soldier.

    The DSO is an officer only award and he is shown as a private in all the images you’ve attached. Have you any documentation to support his service as an officer?

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  9. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    CL1, Sanne and AB64 like this.
  10. Richelieu

    Richelieu Well-Known Member

    The WW2 campaign star warrants are complex and entitlements are not always that straight forward to work out, and there are some anomalies in the photographs provided.

    http://ww2talk.com/index.php?attachments/img-4821-jpg.328744/

    In this photo he appears to be wearing the ribbons for the 1939-45, Air Crew Europe, Africa and Italy Stars. The absence of the War Medal likely indicates that ribbons were still being distributed at that time. The 1939-45 Star was a prerequisite for qualification for the Air Crew Europe Star which could be earned by Army personnel if they had served on aircrew duties for four months “in a R.A.F. operational unit”. All feasible and I presume correct, although the Air Crew Europe ribbon should have a rosette denoting the qualification for the putative France and Germany Star – not conclusive as the rosette might not have been available.

    Things become problematic when you compare this photograph with your colour photograph which shows the France and Germany Star in addition to the same 1939-45, Air Crew Europe, Africa and Italy Stars. Where both the France and Germany and Air Crew Europe Stars had been earned, only the Air Crew Europe Star was awarded together with a France and Germany clasp (indicated by a rosette when the ribbon alone was worn). So there shouldn’t be a France & Germany Star in the colour photo but a clasp on the Air Crew Europe ribbon, and of course, the medals should be in the same order in both photographs.

    I feel that I should know this but would a KGVI clasp be attached to a KGV GSM or would a second GSM be issued? The ribbon for any pre-war GSM would of course have preceded that for the 1939-45 Star.

    A DSO held by a ranker might be explained by an ex-officer who returned to the colours for WW2 without a commission e.g. CWGC - WW1 Additional Awards and Decorations, but I can’t find a Spektor in the London Gazette .
     
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Regarding the jump wings .
    See this I found regarding the red backing.
    Not sure if it relevent but posting for info.



     
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  12. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    I was wondering if the Ribbons may relate to his IDF days as none jumped out - on the actual medal I see

    Top Row -
    DSO (with Bar)
    Air Crew Europe Star
    39-45 Star
    Africa Star
    Italy Star
    France and Germany Star
    Defence Medal
    War Medal
    GSM x 2

    Bottom Row -
    ? (Soviet style ribbon)
    ? (Soviet style ribbon)
    ? but ribbon appears to match Soviet Fall of Berlin medal or 65th anniversary of Victory medal (but the actual medal doesn't seem to match either)
    National Service Medal (commemorative not issued)
    Restoration of peace Medal(commemorative not issued)
    Normandy Campaign Medal(commemorative not issued)
     
    CL1 and Sanne like this.
  13. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Sorry, but I am not convinced by the DSO and Bar. I cannot find either the initial award or the bar in the National Records under James Spektor which is the name used for all his other campaign medals

    As has been said, the DSO is an award only issued to Officers - and are as rare as hen’s teeth in comparison to most other gallantry awards.

    The DSO bit just does not add up.

    Regards

    Frank
     
    CL1 likes this.
  14. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    This is all very confusing!
    I am in the process of applying to the MOD, but it’s going to take a while - both getting the actual application together (I need an English language version of my dad’s death certificate), and, as far as I understand, waiting for the archivists to look for it. Am I right in assuming it can take up to a year - and even so, it might be lost? Well, I’m keeping my fingers crossed. If you are interested, I will come back and update this thread when (or if) I learn more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  15. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    Yes - that is why I am especially interested in finding out anything that corroborates his account. For what it’s worth, I believe him - he was not the type of man who would lie about something like this. Also, his account was quite detailed. But very “far out”, so without proof I know that it will be hard to convince anyone else - such as yourself, Frank.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  16. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for your detailed reply.

    In his introductory post OP says his father enlisted in 1939 aged 16 having misstated his age.

    On that basis I doubt he would be entitled to any pre war GSM so I think they are correctly positioned in post war position but it’s unusual, but not unheard of, for 2 GSM to be worn. The norm would be a single GSM with 2 clasps but administrative errors are not unknown.

    We really need to know what details are on the medal rims and the campaign name on the clasp as pre 1948 GSM Medal rolls are available for comparison.

    In light of OP comment above re his fathers age on enlistment I doubt the WW1 officer to WW2 ranker DSO exception rule applies.

    I can’t see a James Spektor in National Archives or London Gazette but perhaps he served under an anglicized alias. Alastair (AB64) has asked that question of the OP previously.

    We really need the OP to come back with answers to the recent queries posed as they might open up more lines of enquiry.

    Steve
     
    Richelieu and Sanne like this.
  17. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Sorry our recent posts crossed.

    It can take a year for MOD to provide records and on occasion it is a negative search but you do have a service number which is helpful.

    If you can answer the queries raised members may be able to further unravel some of the current inconsistencies.

    I’d advise you to make contact with the UK Jewish expect serviceman’s organization via the below link. They may be able to signpost you to other sources of information.

    AJEX

    Steve
     
    Sanne likes this.
  18. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    The question of his name is complicated - and in part this is why finding his army number was useful.
    In Germany 1923, it was common for Jews to have two sets of names: A European one, and a Jewish/hebrew one. In the British army, my dad was referred to as his European name. At home, he would have been called Jechiel.
    After Israel became a nation, my dad was awarded another last name that had a more Jewish sound to it. But it makes no sense that his papers from the British army would have that name. In addition to this, I am not even sure that Spektor was the name he used during the war - I know there was a German name too, but it has never been revealed to me.
     
  19. Sanne

    Sanne Member

    …And, once again, cross posting - sorry!
    Thank you very much for the link, Steve, these are all very useful clues!
     
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

Share This Page