Help with grandad's Royal Navy Records

Hello Everyone/Anyone , Am trying at the moment to find my grandfathers WW2 Navy Records. I have his WW1 records as he served in both wars. On these records is written something, that i think was added later which refers to his service in WW2. I would like help to understand what's written as this may help with finding his records. The below image is the part written on his WW1 records which for me include dates of 1940 and 1941. Thankyou in advance

 

Hi,
It simply means that he entered RN service on 17.1.1940. It states his service number which was LT/JX 177636. That suggests his Home Port was Lowestoft and he was probably a seaman in small ships - minesweepers or trawlers. That number would be different from a previous number for WWI service.

You would need to contact the MOD for his WW2 records.

Regards
Hugh

 

I'm not sure who DNA3 was. It may be Director Naval Auxiliaries (guess).
However my interpretation of your extract is:
The first part is the authority dated 24/7/41 and continues 'for start of serv[ice] to DNA3 30/7/41 with start 22/7/41. Johnson entered RN 17/1/40 LT/JX177636.
His Official No. of LT/JX 177636 indicates he was in the Royal Naval Patrol Service.

Tim
NB. Hugh can type faster than me!

 

DNA = Director of Naval Accounts.

Regards
Hugh

 

thankyou for your help Hugh and Tim, the service number should get me his record i hope. Bit confusing the different dates but his records should detail all of that. Lowestoft not too far from Hull which is where he lived.

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

From other posts on the forum it would appear that enquiries with RN records can often lead to disappointment at the sparse information provided. I understand Naval Personnel were given a comprehensive discharge certificate at the time of discharge that RN records struggle to replicate.

The usual advice from RN forum specialists - Hugh MacLean - is to request “victualling records” as that assists in building a more in depth picture of a man’s RN service.

Good Luck

Steve

 

Thankyou Steve , I have his WW1 record and it gives the boats and dates he was on the boat, no more than that. I suppose WW2 record will be the same. When you talk about victualling records (had to research what they were- supply records?) do you mean when i get the records and see the boat names i ask for the victualling records of each boat? There are alot of stories in our family about what he did in the war and supposedly his boat sank and he was missing for a time. Would his record show this? are there other ways of tracking missing seaman?
Thanks

 

Original RN Certificates of Service (form S.459) were given to the rating on demob or shortly afterwards. The Admiralty also kept an abridged version of much of the same information on what is known as a Central Record Card (CRC). On many occasions only a shore-establishment is shown on the CRC, especially for those who served in minor war vessels, DEMS or Combined Operations - this is the base that handled the ratings account and not where they were actually serving. So in those instances the MOD can usually supply a little more information using Pay & Victualing Ledgers.
P & V Ledgers are not the Holy Grail here though and in many cases families can be left quite frustrated by the lack of detail supplied. You also need to bear in mind that Naval records were not kept with family historians, genealogists or researchers in mind.

When applying for his record of service it is probably the case that the MOD will have completed a search of his P & V Ledger prior to making up the record for you. But if P & V is not mentioned in the return of records then a definite follow-up with them would be my advice.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh, I would really like to know what happened to him when he went missing. I don't know if i'll ever find out the truth. My Nanna recieved the 'missing in action'(boat sunk) letter but refused to believe he was dead and he turned up again ( i was told) a year later and that he'd been in an african field hospital. ???? (foreign legion??). From our conversation i learnt that his home port was lowestoft, at least at the beginning.... a long way from africa!!!
Louise

 

Hi Louise,
Do you wish to give his full name and dob - privately, if you prefer.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,
His name was Harold James Johnson, was born in Hull the 21st October 1900. served Royal Navy WW1 1917-1919 then merchant navy in between then Royal Navy WW2.
Louise

 

Hi Louise,

He actually served in the Royal Naval Reserve during WWI, enrolling on 2 October 1917 first as Boy Deck Hand then as a Deck Hand in October of that year. I was looking for his RN record and couldn’t find it but now I have seen his RNR record it makes a bit more sense.

So, he served in the Trawler Section of the RNR which makes perfect sense and that would also fit with his Royal Navy service number for WW2, LT/JX which puts him in the RN Patrol Service which could be converted trawlers for minesweeping etc. Of course, minesweepers, converted trawlers did not just operate around the UK coast, they were involved in other operational areas of the war. So, the information you have about him being sunk away from the UK is of course possible. Do you have any information on that letter, dates etc?

I think, if it were me, I would want to see that RN service record for WW2 – It is always where you should really start to be honest.

The Merchant Navy is my interest too and you are probably aware that he has a CR10 card with photo ID as well as a CR2 card covering MN service from about 1922 until about 1927 and a CR1 card all from the Fourth Register of Seamen. He first went to sea on the ship MAGELLAN on 8.12.1920.

Regards
Hugh

 

Confirmation of Harold’s entitlement to the WW1 Victory and British War medals: ADM 171. Hui-Map | The National Archives

 

Thankyou very much for all your help Hugh, it's very kind of you.
I have his merchant navy file, 3 documents, one with a photo, one with a list (don't know what all the numbers mean) and the dates like you say from 22 to 27 and another which gives his first boat.
Didn't realise he was in the reserves, had a closer look and there's a couple of RNR,s. He was in the war though no? The boats he was on are written down although he doesn't seem to spend all that long on each one.
How do you know it was the trawler section?
Don't have any information on exactly when the letter came, when he went missing. I'll ask my cousins again but we're all a bit in the dark. Grandad didn't like talking about the war.
Louise

 

On mobilisation in 1914, the RNR consisted of 30,000 officers and men. Fishermen of the RNR section served with distinction on board trawlers fitted out as minesweepers for mine clearance operations at home and abroad throughout the war, where they suffered heavy casualties and losses.

How do I know he was in the trawler section? I am used to looking at RNR records but his service number tells me straight away that this is where he was serving.

The WW2 Royal Navy record may be the best route here Louise. See this - Get a copy of military records of service

Re the MN cards, the numbers on the side relate to the names of the ships he served in. If you are interested in knowing I can transcribe them for you if you are able to hang on for a few days as I am quite short of time at the moment.

Regards
Hugh

 

Thankyou for that information, just looked up what the medals were for. Victory was awarded amongst others to mine sweepers in the north sea which seems to be what grandad did
Louise

 

Hi Hugh, I would love for you to translate what boats he served on in the merchant navy when you have the time. Do you have them?I tried to look up boats on his RNR WW1 record but only seemed to find one of them.
Will follow up on the WW2 records
Louise

 

Yes, I have already found the cards Louise - leave it with me and I will transcribe them for you.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Louise,
I have found some time

Here is the transcription of the cards and his service between those dates - there will be mistakes and omissions in the cards but he appears to have served as follows.
Interesting that he served as a Trimmer which was an engine-room rating between the wars and for service in WWI and WWII he was on deck as a seaman.

143915 – MAGELLAN – 8.12.1920
108778 – TUSCANSTAR – 2.2.1922
142498 – CHIRRIPO – 28.6.1922
145415 – REVENTAZON – 24.1.1923
145920 – PATIA – 13.6.1923
129284 – MARENGO – 21.11.1923
146267 – TORTUGUERO – 29.1.1924
137074 – ETHELARIC – 28.3.1924
128035 – HUBERT – 24.7.1924
148434 - JOHN A HOLLOWAY – 2.1.1925
118804 – ATLANTIC – 29.6.1925
124768 – KOVNO – 6.12.1925
118187 – ORLANDO – 22.1.1926
140590 - LONDON CITIZEN – 5.6.1926
144097 - SIR JAMES BELL – 23.7.1926
140590 - LONDON CITIZEN – 12.9.1926
142763?? – BAY STATE ??– 29.1.1927
145450 – NESTLEA – 27.5.1927.

He appears to have served most of his seatime during WW1 on HMT GROSBEAK.

Regards
Hugh

 

thankyou very much for that hugh. where do you advise i go to get information on these boats? So he only served from 1922 to 1927 in the MN? thought it was longer. I know dad used to talk about grandad shovelling coal on steam ships.
I have his WW1 records but no mention of a boat called Grosbeak, where did you get that from?
Louise