Help with Marion's Dad's Service Record

Having established that the photograph is of Florence [thanks for all your help with that], I was trying to work out the earliest date that it could have been taken.

8th Survey regiment's records show they were in the area from September 1944, but can anyone confirm when that area was secure as I am assuming (possibly wrongly) that the two servicemen were on R&R when the picture was taken.

Regards

Pete

 

peteT

In early August of '44 the Canadian 1st Inf Div was sent up to near Florence to make it known to Kesselring that the main punch to the Gothic Line would be struck by the Canadians and they spent a few days throwing empty cigarette packets into the Arno and other Canadian goodies - Kesselring then moved his best corps of 1st paras - 26th Pz and 29th Pz Grens over from the coast - the Canadians then did a 180 over to Fabriano - Jesi and started the Gothic Line near the Adriatic coast....this throughly confused Kesselring - who then had to move his corps over to the Coriano Ridge where they stopped us cold for more than two weeks......

Over by Florence - it was "liberated " around mid September by the US 5th Army assisted by British X111 corps of 6th Armoured - 6th Sth African AD - and Brit 4th Inf div.....BUT.. Florence didn't become a leave centre until the spring of '45 when the campaign was winding down at the end of April - they are both wearing the Africa Star ribbon and wearing K.D's or summer dress indicating spring '45

Cheers

 

Tom

Thanks; extremely helpful information as always.

His service record shows that he was awarded the Africa Star in May 1944, so based on the information you provided re the ribbon we are definitely post that date. I will pass on the information you have provided to the family involved.

I have also gained some information on the other photograph (having posted it in the military vehicle section of the forum), so I am almost there.

I am still left with one mystery; the family understand that having returned to Southampton in July 1945 he, along with the rest of the personnel on the ship, were advised that they had to return to Italy immediately. He and others rebelled against this and went AWOL for 3 hours (hence his 7 days FP).

I can't find any ships arriving at Southampton on or around 6th July 1945 which had come from the Mediterranean so I was wondering if there was a standard port of embarkation at the time?. I am also puzzled as to why they would have been returned to Italy when presumably they were on leave. (Does "To Class 1A" on the service record mean "on leave"?) Are there likely to be any records about a rebellion at Southampton Docks around this date?

Regards (and thanks again)

Pete

 

PeteT
never heard of such nonsense of anyone being told to return to Italy while on leave....two reasons - there were enough troops still in Italy to deal with the biggest problem at that time and that was Tito around the Trieste region..
secondly - ships were used only while the war was still on and that would have been from Naples to Liverpool generally when the war ended a land route was opened via Austria from Salzburg - Munich - Frankfurt - Zeebruge - Dover
later the rail route was opened from again Austria - Villach - Padua - Milan - Geneva - Dijon - Paris - Boulogne - Dover etc

Cheers

 

PeteT

Have a look at Diane's thread on "the scars of Florence' where you will see the photo of the Duomo ( Basilica) of Florence as is on the photo on your thread of the two on leave...

Cheers

 

Tom

I also found this picture of Florence, which shows many of the features in the original photograph.

Regards

Pete

 

Tom

Picking up on his 7 day FP, I have just noticed that his service record shows "68 Field Regiment" against the punishment entry. He was AWOL for 3 hours from 23.00hours on 1st July 1945. This regiment was based in Birmingham and Italy at the time so perhaps he was still in Italy when the punishment was handed out.

I thought you might also be interested to know that further research on the ships arriving at Southampton Docks at the time of his punishment do in fact show the Athlone Castle arriving from Naples (with a couple of others arriving from Cherbourg and Havre) ... so perhaps there is some mileage in the family story.

It doesn't, of course, provide a reason for him being "sent back" to Italy.

I have posted a separate thread to see if I can get an answer to the "To Class 1A" entry on his service record; if it does mean "posted to leave" then he may well have sailed on the Athlone Castle to Southampton. If it has no link with being on leave then it is likely that he was still in Italy as there is nothing else on his service record showing that he was on leave.

Just out of interest, at the end of the war, were men given leave before LIAP?

The joy of research!

Regards

Pete

 

Hi

Hopefully you've found the information on Florence useful. A word of caution when you say that you hope that it helps confirm anything about his unit. In the case of my Father, his unit was in Ravenna at the time which would be a trip of around 150km for a weeks leave and similarly, an earlier spot of leave to Bari in 1944 entailed a trip of around 260km. From what I can gather, men travelled quite some distance to the various 'rest camps' that were being run by the army.

Re the last post, I've attached for interest, some entries from 2 unit diaries covering 1945. Interesting that the officers felt obliged to track all these various movements and also how the references to Python change to LIAP as we go through 1945.

How I read this is that some of these entries imply men were going back to the UK and then back out to Italy again. Some mention LAND LIAP, others Rail so was this specifically different from a normal passage by sea perhaps?

The entry in the diary for the 251 Bulk Petrol Storage Section for 12 10 1945, is, I believe, my father as 2 days later on 14 10, his service record states....CMF Embkd for U.K. on LIAP Leave. Army Rank Pte. 14.10.45. It must have been a bit of a journey from Taranto to Naples as he did not finally come home until his plane landed in Cornwall on the 5th November as part of Operation Dodge. I hope to be at Kew later this week to read some of the diaries covering that operation.

WO170- 5875 1503 artillery Platoon RASC (Hy)
27 03 1945
Warm & Sunny. 11 x 3 Ton Street Clearance. 12 x 3 Ton ammunition detail. 5 x 3 Ton misc. details. One OR proceeded to Port of Embarkation (Python). One OR SOS on admission to hospital-sick.
11 05 1945
Warm and Sunny. 2 ORs proceeded to Port of Embarkation - "Python". 24 x 3 T on GT work.
31 05 1945
Warm and Sunny. 26 vehicles on detail. 1 OR Proceeded to Port of Embarkation - "Python".
01 06 1945
Warm and Sunny. 28 vehicles on detail. 1 OR proceeded to Port of Emb. - "Python".
14 06 1945
Warm and Sunny. 26 vehicles on detail. 2 ORs SOS this Platoon proceeded to Port of Embarkation - "Python".
07 06 1945
Warm and Sunny. 27 vehicles on detail. 1 OR proceeded to Port of Embarkation - "LIAP".
11 06 1945
Warm and Sunny. 1 vehicle on detail. 1 OR TOS this Platoon on return from LIAP.
25 06 1945
Stormy. 27 vehicles on detail. 1 OR SOS to hospital. 2 ORs proceed on LAND LIAP.
07 08 1945
Warm and Sunny. 2 ORs return from LAND LIAP. 28 vehs on detail.
14 08 1945
Dull and Cloudy - Rain.. 27 vehs on detail. 3 ORs return from LAND LIAP.
27 08 1945
Warm and Sunny. 27 vehs proceed on detail. 5 ORs proceed on LAND LIAP
28 08 1945
Warm and Sunny. 26 vehs on detail. 4 ORs return from LAND LIAP.
01 09 1945
Warm and Sunny. Normal details. 1 OR posted to 925 Coy RASC (Armd Bde). 1 OR posted to 59 Port Det RASC. 2 OR posted to 57 DID RASC. 10 OR posted to 19 Fd Butchery RASC. 14 OR'S proceed on Rail LIAP.
09 09 1945
Warm and Sunny. Vehs return from 345 Coy RASC. Tpt details discontinued. Commence preparations for disbandment. 4 OR's proceed on RAIL LIAP.
15 09 1945
Warm and Sunny. Still preparing for disbandment. 1 OR posted to 241 Coy RASC (Stn Tpt). Awaiting joining instructions. 1 OR posted to 277 Coy RASC (A/T). 2 OR's proceed on Rail LIAP.
20 09 1945
Warm and Sunny. 14 x 3 ton Dodge T11OL Cl 11 vehs transferred to 19 Field Park Milan. 16 OR's proceed on Rail LIAP.


WO170- 6130 251 Bulk Petrol Storage Section RASC
04 01 1945
Lt Col Wintle, CRASC 11 P.I. paid a short visit. Cpl Dipper Checker left unit on PYTHON posting to the UK.
29 01 1945
A further L.I.A.P. vacancy allotted to Unit. Draw made among men of between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 years overseas service. S/Sgt Kendall was the man selected (2 1/2 years service). Short visit by OC 6 BPSC.
06 02 1945
S/Sgt Kendall left on LIAP.
02 03 1945
Pte Busk?? Returned from L.I.A.P.
06 03 1945
Installations inspected by CRASC 11 Pet Installations. Pte Barnett despatched to U.K. on Python posting.
12 03 1945
Warm & Sunny. 11 x 3 Ton Street Clearance. 9 x 3 Ton misc. details. One OR returns to duty from L.I.A.P. One OR S.O.S. on admission to hospital - sick.
23 03 1945
Warm & Sunny. 11 x 3 Ton Street Clearance. 8 x 3 Ton misc. details. One O.R. returns to duty from L.I.A.P.
03 04 1945
Warm & Sunny. 27 x 3 T amn detail. 1 O.R. proceeded to Port of Embarkation - L.I.A.P.
13 04 1945
S/Sgt Kendall returned from LIAP.
25 04 1945
Burst on pipeline from Il Pizzone near Booster Station. Diesel locomotive repaired and in action. Pte Clerk and Dvr arrived from RASC TD to replace personnel shortly due to go home on PYTHON.
28 04 1945
Barge 210 (RN) loaded 99 Octane. L/Cpl Dipper Checker, Pte Clerk, and one Dvr left unit on Python. Pipeline to Italian Seaplane Base converted to carry 99 Octane instead of 87 Octane. Italian planes are now using 99 Octane.
19 07 1945
Small grass fire at Punta Penna. 1 L/Cpl Dipper Checker, 1 Pte Issuer, 1 Driver proceeded on LIAP
20 07 1945
1 L/Cpl Driver, I Issuer posted to UK on Python.
24 07 1945
T/Ship "Seminole" arrived Punta Penna and commenced pumping at 14.30 hrs. 1 L/Cpl Dipper Checker and 1 Dvr Fireman proceeded on LIAP.
08 08 1945
Capt Hunting handed over command of Unit to Lieut JJB Edwards and departed on LIAP. Tanker " Yellow Tavern" completed discharge of 14487 tons 100 Octane at 12.30 hrs. Sgt Fireman, Pte Dipper Checker and Pte Fitter departed on LIAP. 3 O.Rs reported from 310 BPSS - attached.
16 08 1945
Barge "210" loaded 33 Tons 100 Octane at Punta Penna. Pte Dipper Checker departed to UK on LIAP.
03 09 1945
L/Cpl Dipper Checker, Dvr and Issuer rejoined the Unit from LIAP.
09 09 1945
Cpl Dipper Checker rejoined Unit from LIAP.
20 09 1945
1 Pte Clerk, 1 Pte Welder, 1 Pte Dipper Checker, 1 Fitter (pet) and 4 issuers posted to this unit from 310 BPSS on disbandment. Sgt Dipper Checker and Pte Fitter rejoined Unit from LIAP.
22 09 1945
Pte Dipper Checker and Pte Fitter rejoined Unit from LIAP.
23 09 1945
Capt DEH Hunting returned from LIAP and re-assumed Command of the Unit. Capt JJB Edwards reverted to WS/Lieut.
28 09 1945
Pte Issuer proceeded on LIAP. Pte clerk detached to S and T Branch, AFHQ until further notice. Lt Col Brisco ADST and Major Reiss ADST (Pet) 52 Area visited Il Fronte Installation.
07 10 1945
Cpl Clerk granted 28 days leave in U.K. (LIAP) Pte Welder posted to 312 BPSS. RASC.
09 10 1945
Tanker "Antonia" completed loading at Punta Penna 13.00 hrs - 2622 tons 100 Octane. Pte Dipper Checker rejoined from LIAP.
12 10 1945
4 Pte Issuers, 1 Pte clerk, 1 Pte Fitter (pet) granted 28 days leave in UK (LIAP).
22 10 1945
Pte issuer granted 28 days leave in U.K. (LIAP), Major Mair OCRASC Taranto paid routine visit.
04 11 1945
Tanker "Pozza Rica" commenced loading 100 Octane at Punta Penna 07.00 hrs. L/Cpl Dvr and Pte Welder proceeded on LIAP.
06 12 1945
Pte Fitter posted from 312 BPSS RASC. Pte Issuer returned from LIAP.
23 12 1945
L/Cpl Driver returned from LIAP. Capt DEH Hunting returned from visit to Manfredonia Detachment.

 

Hutt

There was little point in having a leave before LIAP as that was a 28 day leave period in the UK......now the reason the Python changed to LIAP after 1945 was that ALL those sent home on Python had served more than FOUR years overseas and did NOT have to return to an overseas billet until six months in the UK - whereas LIAP was only after less than THREE years overseas for 28 days in the Uk to RETURN to the overseas unit..in my own case i had LIAP in '46 - then Python early '47 and Demob in May '47..so very lucky with leave at that point....but the regiment was gearing up to move to Lybia - so didn't need anyone who wasn't going to serve less than three years as a regular

Cheers

 

Thanks Hutt and Tom for your feedback.

I am pretty confident from all your responses that he was still overseas when he received his FP (not in the UK as the family believe), but I will leave them to draw their own conclusions from the information you have provided.

I plan to draw a line under this project now and focus on my RAF research, but it has been an interesting exercise and I have learned a lot from all those that have contributed to this thread.

Thanks once again to everyone for putting in the time and effort; very much appreciated.

Regards

Pete