Identify Photo 1944

My grandfather drove a Cromwell OP tank, he was in the Coldstream Guards, Guards Armoured Division and I know that at one point in the war, his tank was painted up and named "Doc". He told me that it was with other tanks painted up as Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Hence I found this thread! I'll try to get the few photos we have of him and his fellow tank crew mates around the tank with "Doc" painted on the side.

 

For my first post....
My dad Sergeant Ronald Joy 2659042, 1 Coldstream Guards was in this very squad attached to Brigade HQ, 5th Guards Armoured Brigade. Photos are attached to show artwork as done by Gdsm Albert Kershaw 2720785, 2 Irish Guards KIA 01/08/1944. It appears at this stage that the character names were only above the machine gun so I not sure when they were taken, although the tanks look fairly smart.
As far as I understand these were OP tanks and generally attached to other units as necessary. My dad passed away in 2013 and we discovered a book of his life that went as far as being transported to Brighton prior to D Day. I am now trying to piece together the remaining part of his story and would to love to hear if there is any other information that will help me. I will be applying for his army records and I was looking for any for any form of war diary for 5 Guards Armoured Brigade HQ when I came across this post.

 

Hi Nigel, this has blown me away. That's my Grandfather, Reginald Clifford in the first photograph you attached. He is shown here on the far right of the picture, in front of 'Dopey' (a sherman?) but I know he mostly talked about driving 'Doc' (which was a Cromwell).

I am very interested to hear that this squad was attached to other units as necessary. Explains a lot in terms of dead ends I've found in reading books/articles to try and place him. Due to the Covid-19 lockdown I cannot yet scan in the photos I have of the tank in question which were taken at a different time to the ones above.

 

Hi Steve, that's brilliant that you've been able to see him. We're obviously hitting the same dead ends. As you can see all the photos show Shermans and I never heard my Dad mention anything else. I did get snippets of his stories, including being attached to the IG when they captured Joe's bridge and how they would direct the typhoons in but to my regret I held off questioning him down to the fine detail and getting everything written down. I'm hoping that someone with deeper knowledge will pick this up and maybe give us both more detail.

 

To add to my photos posted I list below details of the crews shown based on my Dad's notes. Excuse any misspelling

Snow White - Gdsm Bamford Gdsm Blake
Bashful - Gdsm Thomson Gdsm King Sleepy - Cpl Porter Gdsm Roberts Happy - Sgt Ron Joy Gdsm Beamont Doc - L/S Hodgson Gdsm Rooke
Sneezy - Gdsm Bottrill Sgt Rignal Grumpy - L/S Harper Gdsm Watts Dopey - L/S Smith Gdsm Pennington Gdsm Clifford

HQ Troop posing on Bulldozer tank. Back row Harrison, L/c Hyde, L/S Gaskel, Bullard
Front row Bailey, Ron Joy, Bell, Davey

 

FO/OP tanks/vehicles belonged to the Artillery Regiments and were marked as such. Those are not OP Shermans.

An OP tank looked indistinguishable from a gun tank and only the markings gave them away

 

Doc in those photos is a Sherman

 

Hi Robert, yes you are correct. It stands to reason, therefore, that more than one set of tanks were painted up/named as such or that the sherman 'Doc' was replaced by a Cromwell.

 

would seem unlikely

 

Why?

 

I'll work this reply business out eventually....

Appreciate your knowledge on this, only going on what my Dad used to say and what his notes say. It would be nice to know what they were actually used for. Definitely later on they had a specific tank named Ariel which took on board grounded RAF pilots and used to direct Typhoons onto targets.

 

In the well-known Villers Bocage photos of the wreckage of 4 CLY HQ Group there are 3 FO/OP casualties, 2 Cromwell and 1 M4. At least one more M4 OP was present but escaped.
The vehicles (not always tanks) were used by spotters for the various Artillery Regiments in the Divisions and appear to travel with HQs until such time as they toddle off to call in artillery support. I believe the 'air-link' vehicles were an entirely different beast.

 

Thank you so much for sharing the pictures of the 7 dwarf tanks. I knew they existed but never could find the pictures. Snowwhite features in the famous picture of the liberation of Valkenswaard, the Netherlands.

 

An absolute pleasure, I'm hoping people will be able to tell me more about them. How did you know about them? I have never seen any mention anywhere except, as you say, the classic picture.

 

I don't know when I heard it first. It must have been years back, when I just started out investigating WW2 in my vicinity (Aalst-Waalre and Valkenswaard). Someone pointed out the snowwhite mark on the famous picture and told me there where also seven tanks with the name of the dwarfs. Later someone told me there where pictures of these tanks around. So I searched for years but finaly gave up. So when I saw them on here yesterday, I was like: Thank god! It's true!

 

Great photos of Snow White & the 7 Dwarves!

Back to the first photo, I believe the DUKWs belong to 536 GT Coy RASC. The style and location of the markings are typical of this unit.

Additionally, on DUKW A23 the words 'XXXX BETTY' are not just girlfriend names scribbled on the vehicle as was frequently the case, but a two-part name starting with the Troop letter, just like the following other two examples of 536 GT Coy vehicles in the Netherlands.

DUKW B20 'Baby Mary' of B Troop:


Source: BeeldbankWO2.nl image 123652

DUKW C15 'Charing Cross' of C Troop, reportedly in the Leeuwarden area:


Source: BeeldbankWO2.nl image 120403

On A23, the name, written on both the side of the vehicle and on the tyre on the front looks like 'ANGEL... BETTY'. I would bet on 'ANGELIC BETTY':



Michel

 

I thought OP tanks were on the establishment of armoured brigade HQs.

regards

 

Nothing to add, but wanted to say: what a cracking thread, cracking photos, and thank you to the posters. Good stuff.

Cheers, Pat

 

Do we have any wireless experts who can determine anything from the aerials in the photos? I am unfamiliar with the one shown in post 51.

 

Michel,

From the war diary of 536 Coy RASC (WO171/2493):

"16 September 1944
Coy now under command of C.RASC 43 Div – orders to move to 43 Div area at TESSENDERLOO. Capt Parker left to liaise with C.RASC 43 Div. A and B pls left location at BRUSSELS to load amn for dumps in forward areas. Pls proceeded to new location individually. C pl proceeding to new location direct from BOURG-LEOPOLD. HQ and Wksps move from BRUSSELS at 1600 hrs, arriving complete at new location at 2100 hrs. BDST ends – clocks go back to Zone A time at 0300 hrs on 17th.

17 September 1944 TESSENDERLOO
43 Div Op Instr No 1 (Op ‘Garden’) received. OC attended conference at 130 Bde. C.RASC visited unit to-day. A, B & C pls left location on detachment as follows:-
A pl 21 dukws to 7 Hants – B pl 21 dukws to 4 Dorsets – C pl 21 dukws to 5 Dorsets;
129, 130 and 214 Bdes respectively.
Capt parker attached to HQ 130 Bde with 3 dukws.

18 September 1944
HQ and Wksps awaiting orders to move forward with HQ Adm Area 43 Div. 50 Coy RASC (DUKWS) refitting. OIC Wksps took over 33 dukws from this Coy and evacuated 18 of our dukws to 50 Coy for disposal. Orders received to attached [sic] 1 pl of dukws to 214 Bde. Capt Leith commanding the pl which was made up from the remainder of A, B and C pls – domestic requirements drawn from HQ and wksps forming D pl. OC visited 30 Corps DDST re mail. No mail received by this unit for 14 days.

19 September 1944
Orders still awaited to move forward – 43 Div move postponed. Tpt left with HQ and Wksps insufficient to carry stores which have to be left behind for collection at a later date. Imprest account closed – new Imprest opened in Dutch money.

20 September 1944
Nothing to report.


21 September 1944
Nothing to report.

22 September 1944
Orders received to move to harbouring area (VINK) at 1730 hrs. HQ and Wksps moved as per orders and reported RP VINK – coy complete in harbouring area. DR from Capt Parker reported A, B & C pls temporarily detached to US Airborne Div for tp carrying.

23 September 1944 VINK
Coy waiting in harbouring area to move forward. 43 Div Adm Group column ordered to remain in harbouring area to allow priority traffic through. Roads congested on this route. OC attended O Gp conference at 2330 hrs – pls revert to 130, 129 and 214 Bdes command.

24 September 1944
Orders to move forward received by OC – Coy moved from leagering area at 0630 hrs. Coln moved very slowly. Halted at EINDHOVEN for 4 hours to allow bde to go through for protection of route. Road under shell fire between VEGHEL and ZEELAND. All vehs, except breakdown, 1 3 ton and 2 motor-cycles safely through. These were cut off from the coy by shell-fire. Coy arrived at new location at HOOGBEHEK (HOLLAND) at 1900 hrs. Capt Parker reported the following casualties:- 1 man killed, 4 wounded and 5 dukws lost through enemy action.

25 September 1944 HOOGBEHEK
Vehs still cut off between VEGHEL and ZEELAND – Capts Parker and Leith reported in to OC. Pls still operating with 129, 130 and 214 Bdes and suffering minor casualties. OC visited pls this morning. One further dukw lost by enemy action.

26 September 1944
Nothing to report.

27 September 1944
A, B, C & D pls released from 129 and 130 Bdes and returned to location during afternoon. 40 dukws detailed to report to 162 FMC for transport of supplies to dumps between NIJMEGEN and ARNHEM. Bridge at NIJMEGEN dangerous – enemy shell-fire heavy around bridge. Coy Defence Scheme submitted to HQ 43 Div in conjunction with 505 Coy RASC in adjacent location.

I don't know if that helps or not.

Regards

Tom