II SS Panzer Corps at Prokhorovka

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Jonathan Ball, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Success of an operation is not determined by localised victories. Even if we will admit an hypotetical tactical brilliance by II-SSPzK - two spoonfuls of salt, please - the operative word is localised. There is much more to the so called Battle of Kursk than the Prokhorovka episode. Prok. occurred because the road to the main objective - Kursk itself - was barred to 48PzK and II-SS had to veer off to the right towards nowhere: Prokhorovka. And what was the purpose? Zitadelle was supposed to be a doble envelopment, with 9th and 4th Pz Armies meeting in the Kursk area but 9th Army had been blocked already. The image of the one hand clap applies.

    Also, it was a one finger clap, as the main force involved in P. was not II-SS but 1st SS PzGrenDiv Leibstandarte. From Michael Licari: (shoot! In the meantime Ger had put the same thing up already!!! :D )

    In fact, only one, the Liebsstandarte Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) fought this battle. The other two were on the flanks of the LSSAH (Totenkopf on the left, and largely across the Psel River, and Das Reich on the right) and were fighting their own separate battles. At the time of the battle, LSSAH had already been in combat for about a week and was substantially depleted. By July 11th and 12th, the two main days of the battle, LSSAH was down to about 100 tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers (not including observation tanks).
    So this was a small but inflated episode within a big battle, after the Germans had shot their bolt already.

    Thanks Sol, I have to get hold of Zetterling someday :)

    And Ger, I disagree with your last paragraph. K was a turning point :)
     
  2. L J

    L J Senior Member

    the SSPzKorps lost 31 tanks during Citadelle (total German losses were :252 tanks) and,at Prochorovka,the SS PzKorps lost 3 tanks and 522 men .
    Prochorovka was only an insignifiant incident of the war in the east .
     
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    A pox on Caidin and both his houses :lol: Actually Caidin was only retelling what the Soviets told him, but the Sovs themselves considered Pr. a disaster caused by gross mishandling of the 5th GdsTkArmy. Also we have to bear in mind that roughly half the 5thGTA tank force were T-70 LIGHT tanks - better than Pz II, worse than PzIIIs.
     
  4. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    And Ger, I disagree with your last paragraph. K was a turning point :)
    :lol: Well we cant agree on everything, can we? We do a pretty good job most times!! Now, on with the discussion!
     
  5. L J

    L J Senior Member

    The following is from the AHF(Das Reich organization during Citadelle)
    Strength of Das Reich on 1 july 1943
    Operational:
    51 PzIII lg
    9 PzIII Beob.
    31 PzIV lg
    12 PzVI
    1 PzI
    9 PzIII Bef.
    15 T 34
    11 Marder
    32 StuG III
    In short term repair:
    11 PzIII lg
    1 Pz VI
    9 T 34
    In long term repair:
    1 PzII
    2 Pz IV lg
    1 Pz VI
     
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Jonathan , thanks for the data - I am working my through George Nipe's new book on the II SS-Panzer Korps and its part in the battle of Prochorowka and was interested to see what a more recent book on the battle gave in respect of the three major SS Divisions tank strength on the 12th July.
    Will add some info from GN's new book tomorrow ,. his figures are very similar to that which you quote Jonathan.
    James, does Nipe give any figures for the losses suffered by the SS at Prokhorovka?
     
  7. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    the SSPzKorps lost 31 tanks during Citadelle (total German losses were :252 tanks) and,at Prochorovka,the SS PzKorps lost 3 tanks and 522 men .

    LSSAH and Das Reich lost together 522 men on 12 July but II SSPzK lost 842 men on that day.
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    522? That's about half the complement of a PzGren Battalion a paper strength. Skin armour is much thinner than steel.
     
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Page 2

    An article from AMVAS's site over at Armchair general. This too makes the point that LAH (or the "Adolf Hitler Panzer Division" as it is referred to) was the only unit from II SS Pnzer Corps involved in the Battle at Prokhorovka. Its not referred to as a battle in this article but a meeting engagement.
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Which it was. ;)
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Which it was. ;)
    Indeed it was, however many authors refer to it as the "Battle of Prokhorovka". Obviously that sells more books than the "Meeting Engagement of Prokhorovka" :lol:.
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    There also were Pz I :D
    Das Reich :1
    LSSAH :3
    Potentially there were 3 Pz I's at the meeting engagement of Prokhorovka!! Now there's an unfortunate position to be in, motoring along in your little pz1 when the 5th Guards Tank Army trundles over the hill........ :lol:
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    What is the matter with you and the Pz I? :)

    They had a role as unit commander's hack, with luck as recce. Not much worse than Ron's turretless Stuart.
     
  14. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Page 2

    An article from AMVAS's site over at Armchair general. This too makes the point that LAH (or the "Adolf Hitler Panzer Division" as it is referred to) was the only unit from II SS Pnzer Corps involved in the Battle at Prokhorovka. Its not referred to as a battle in this article but a meeting engagement.

    According to the Still Storm all three division from the II SSPzK took part in the battle, but LSSAH carried brunt on the action, even thought that Totenkopf suffered the heaviest losses.
     
  15. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    What is the matter with you and the Pz I? :)

    They had a role as unit commander's hack, with luck as recce. Not much worse than Ron's turretless Stuart.
    :lol: my warped sense of humour.
     
  16. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    According to the Still Storm all three division from the II SSPzK took part in the battle, but LSSAH carried brunt on the action, even thought that Totenkopf suffered the heaviest losses.
    Sol, whatever about them all being part of the action at Prokhorovka, we can all agree that they saw action between the 10th-12th July side by side. This is the problem, even trying to define the parameters of the actions around Prokhorovka (was it a battle or a meeting engagement, who took part?) is a discussion in itself, never mind what happened.
     
  17. L J

    L J Senior Member

    Zetterling and Frankson are giving the tank and AG losses for the SS Panzer korps for the period 5/23 july as :36
    5 PzIII
    23 PzIV
    3 Tigers
    5 StuG
    (without T 34,Marder,etc)
    Probably these 36 are total loss,not damaged tanks .
     
  18. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Please excuse me for appearing a little dim here. From what I have read lately on the thread there appears to be a difference in opinion from various accounts about what constituted the Battle of Prokhorovka?

    In the book I have by Healy it seems to me that he counts all 3 divisions of II SS Pz Korps of having taken part in this battle. However, at the weekend I picked up a copy of the recent Lloyd Clark book Kursk - The Greatest Battle and he seems to take a differing view...

    By early afternoon, therefore, the Battle of Prokhorovka in the central sector with LAH had come to reflect the wider Battle of Kursk. It had become a slogging match but with a difference - rather than the Germans doing the attacking, it was the Soviets. Having moved forward to take Prokhorovka, on sighting Rotmistrov's armoured waves, LAH quickly realigned themselves for defence and absorbed the 5th Guards Tank Army's power with great success. But what of the other II SS Panzer Corps divisions? Although not fighting for territory as overtly critical as the battlefield between the Psel and the railway embankment, the confrontation on the flanks was important for the central sector. If Totenkopf and Das Reich could gain the upper hand, that would put pressure on the Soviet centre to withdraw towards Prokhorovka, while failure would leave any advance by LAH in an exposed salient

    I'm way behind you guys in knowledge about the Ostfront but it's been a fascinating thread to follow. Thanks.
     
  19. woapysittank

    woapysittank Member

    I looked at Weidingers "Das Reich" IV for info on the losses of personnel in the Division but he also gives IISS Korps losses. Tank losses were not massive but personnel losses were very heavy and remarkably similar.
    5th-19th July '43

    SSLAH 2353 losses 474 of whom were dead.
    SSDR 2323 losses 456 of whom were dead.
    SST 2668 losses 512 of whom were dead.
    Korps troops 39 losses 5 of whom were dead.

    Each Division had lost about a Regiment each their fighting power was greatly diminished.

    As a matter of interest he lists SSDR's losses on 11/7/43 as:

    41 dead, 190 wounded and 12 missing.

    12/7/43

    17 dead and 44 wounded.
     
  20. cbiwv

    cbiwv Junior Member

    While the 2nd SS Panzer Corps was outstanding it could not make up for the dead weight that were many other SS units.
     

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