Jacob's Ladder - Italy July 1944

Discussion in 'Italy' started by GANDALF, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Roberto,

    Welcome aboard to this long-running thread. Some of those who have posted have not logged back on, notably a fellow Italian Danny Gurkha and Douglas Law. It might be worth using the Private Message option for the others, especially if they have not flagged this thread. Snag, you cannot use the PM option until you have posted five times. We do advise email addresses are not displayed.
     
  2. Roberto Barbini

    Roberto Barbini New Member

    Thanks for the welcome and for the advice.
    I can remove my email address, but I don't know how.
     
  3. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Roberto,

    To renove your email click on Edit then remove it.

    Saluti,

    Vitelliino
     
  4. Gloucestershire Hussar

    Gloucestershire Hussar R. Gloucestershire Hussars Research Committee

    Please be aware that this information is still the property of the Milvain family and should only be used for personal interest or research purposes as well as with curtesy and respect for the fallen combatants of all nations.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1RPjJyFG2o6vqocet_5yHpWc_DDtbEVPF&usp=sharing
    This map details movements way beyond the scope of this particular thread and I would appreciate a note informing me of any other topics which may become associated with it's contents on this forum.
    Thank you and enjoy.
     
  5. Roberto Barbini

    Roberto Barbini New Member

    Thank you for your kind interest.
    My only purpose is to try to reconstruct, in the most precise way, the layout of that Jacob's Ladder. Work which, at least from a military point of view, must have had undoubted particular merits, justifying the interest of King George VI himself.
    All this, as a special due thanks to those who allowed it to be built and with the highest respect for the fallen fighters of all nations. Many of which are buried in the war cemetery of Indicatore (Arezzo)
    Arezzo War Cemetery | Cemetery Details | CWGC
    It would also be nice to add the Jacobbe Staircase, like other tracks that, in the area, are rediscovered, enhanced and retraced in peace in memory.
    That's all.
     
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  6. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Would anyone have a copy of the war diary? Captain Milvain must have got his map from somewhere. I will find and upload the map in use by the allies from txu maps or McMaster maps and then edit this post.

    As some of you know, I have spent 20 years now researching ww2 in northern Umbria and eastern Tuscany and everything I have found is in the public domain. That the Italians are taking an interest in the military campaign and not solely in the activities of the partisans is a huge step forward and I would like to commend Roberto Barbini's initative. Bravo.

    Vitellino

    I have downloaded the 1943 Map 1:100.000 Città di Castello, sheet 115, and it seems clear to me that what is now a provincial road on the above link did not exist. Perhaps the new provincial road followed Jacob's ladder for part of the way. I would suggest to Robert that he contact the surveyor's department in the town hall in Arezzo to see what they can tell him about post-war road construction in that area.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  7. Roberto Barbini

    Roberto Barbini New Member

    Good morning to you.
    Yesterday, I dedicated myself to Jacob's Ladder, carrying out inspections and collecting testimonies.
    I think I'm on the right track. Sorry, about good Ledder.
    As also deduced by Vitellino in his last post, the road that connected Volterrano to Santa Maria della Rassinata, in 1944 was not there.
    There was only one path, which could be covered on foot or a little more.
    Evidently, making that path suitable for vehicles was considered more difficult than tracing another one. Ex novo.
    And so it was done.
    However, instead of approaching the hill from the same side, it was preferred to go further west of Volterrano, along the cart track at the bottom of the valley, along the Nestore stream. What is now Provincial Road 104 [SP 104].
    Cross the Ansina stream, the Cozzo ditch and then board the hill towards the north, presumably reaching the village of Largnano / Ranchetto.
    Always referring to the same map cited by Vitellino, with aerial photogrammetric relief of 1949, following the path reported in the same and touching the localities: Ranchetto, Badia di Largnano, Pian del Desco, Rancio, Dogana.
    Reasonably, having to reach Palazzo del Pero in the shortest possible time, every compatible road system that already exists will have been exploited.
    From Largnano / Ranchetto, always proceeding in a northerly direction, we joined the driveway that linked Palazzo del Pero to Santa Maria della Rassinata near Mount Dogana, whose altitude is 906 meters. s.l., would find confirmation in a previous post on this same portal [DouglasLaw, Mar 23, 2018].
    The road that descended to Palazzo del Pero, at that time, was already ordinarily passable and that, in all probability, it will have been used without too many necessary modifications.
    For each appropriate comparison, I would like to point out a hydrographic map made by the Tuscany Region, on which to identify the watercourses mentioned.
    Banche dati Difesa del Suolo - Regione Toscana
    For a simpler reading, Jacob's Ladder presumably started from graft SP104, in Ansina: Lat. 43.352 - Long. 12.044 then reached Largnano / Ranchetto Lat: 43.365 - Long: 12.036 and finally the ridge, Monte Dogana and the connection on the Provincial Road of Rassinata: Lat: 43.391 - Long: 12.026
    The above data and considerations are the result, as mentioned, of testimonies collected yesterday. In particular, in one of these the use of bulldozers was well remembered, the extreme speed of progress of the work that continued uninterruptedly and the use of Indian troops who, with the different skin color of their members, had aroused a mixture of curiosity and fear among the locals. It remains to connect the route exactly with what is already easily accessible today. Which I intend to do next weekend.
    Roberto Barbini
     
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  8. Neal Winfield

    Neal Winfield Member

    I have found the search for Jacob's Ladder fascinating as I live just down the road in Sansecondo and have been pouring over my maps and books. I've got an excellent 1:25,000 scale map of the Upper Tiber Valley in the Percori Verdi series. Unfortunately, it ends just at the point we are all interested in and has photos pasted over the area, Sod's Law. I've attached the portion you can see, as it's very detailed, it's such a shame that we can't see the rest of the territory in the same detail. Maybe someone can make connections with the small piece we can see.

    Great site, loving your work guys. Kind regards, Neal.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

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  10. Neal Winfield

    Neal Winfield Member

    That's great Tony, thank you.

    Today, as it's only 15 km from my house, I couldn't resist taking a drive to the area for an exploration. Looking at the Nestore Valley the Ansina cut is the only logical starting point. The left side of the valley is a steeper climb and twice the distance to reach the S.M. Rassinata - Palazzo Pero road. The SP41 makes the obvious route from what I can see, it is a steadier climb, 100m lower and only 4.5 Km instead of over 8 km. Both have a scattering of villages that tracks and cartways would have linked, so there would have been a sort of route layout for either option. It's an easy climb with a few cutbacks to get up the steep parts but in the main, the route follows the contour lines until a sensible point to attack the slope.

    The one thought that remains in my mind is that after all this effort to build the road, wouldn't the community want to maintain it. In which case the road directly to S.M. Rassinata makes sense? If anyone would like to meet up for a chat and a tour of the area, I'd be happy to join in. I've attached some photos of the day.

    All the best, Neal.

    20220829_114348[1].jpg 20220829_112743[1].jpg 20220829_112723[1].jpg 20220829_113230[1].jpg 20220829_113825[1].jpg
     
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