Danny, I think for inshore survey simpler methods were used. The end of the wire was weighted and sunk rather than being fixed to a buoy. I have this photo which seems to be an LCP(L) carrying one of the buoys that LCP(Sy) laid. An interesting colour still from one of George Stevens films. From the same source. I copied this because it shows one of the coloured windsocks erected at beach exits but is that a Weasel in the background? Mike
Good eye Mike! This must be a Weasel, as it perfectly matches the shape of the rear windows in the canvas cover. I can't think of any other vehicle that would do. The place is Bernières (NAN WHITE Green Gap). Michel
That will be my old Royal Observer Corps training Michel. We were supposed to identify slides of aircraft displayed for one tenth of a second. Mike.
Hi, Mike thanks very much for that information. I have had a look at a couple of things and it looks like the Taut Wire Measuring Gear used on the LC was about two foot long and two foot wide. About eighteen inches high. Interesting colour photos. One day we will find out what units the Weasels were actually issued to for the landing. If that “130” on the LCP(L) is the Pennant Number then it came from 703 Assault Flotilla. LCP(L) 130. Fitted SD - k 703 Assault Flotilla, 1st Support Squadron, Assault Group J1, Force J. Based at Warsash. K = Kermath SD = Special Silencing The object on the roof of 558 is a loud hailer as you said. It has a cover fitted over the front. Regards Danny
Great stuff Danny. It is all coming together nicely. I am pleased, delighted, amazed to have been able to tell you something, however small, for a change. Mike
LCP(L) Smoke. Is this a good time to ask if anyone can add to the following. No 14 Smoke Generator (Smoke Pot). This was a naval smoke generator which appears to be similar is size to the army No24 Smoke Generator. No 24 Smoke Generator, used widely by the army and on Sword Beach for laying AA smoke screens. It was some 18 inches high and 9 inches diameter. Weight was about 40 lb. It used chemicals to generate smoke for 12 to 15 minutes. It came in a tin with a lid. The lid was removed and a fuse, either match fuse or electrical fuse, was inserted. The electric fuse was wired to a battery and could be used to wire generators in series so that a continuous smoke screen was produced. With no evidence at all I imagine that the smoke generators on LCP(L) were arranged in a simple framework for stability. Army generators simply stood on the ground. The only clear illustration that I have seen bears the warning, ‘Do not ignite in a confined space’. Mike
Hi, Mike I don’t think I have any good shots of the LCP(L) Smoke Pots but if they are anything like the other then it would be a fairly basic set up as you say. The LCI(S) had a wooden base for the large Smoke Pots to sit in/on. Attached are a couple of photos of LC with various Smoke Pots on. Regards Danny
Chaps, Regards LCP(L) smoke equipment Lt Colin Kitching of 702 LCP(L) Flotilla recounts in his memoirs… “It was obvious that LCPs were unsuitable for landing assault troops and we were switched to carrying out specialist smoke-laying duties. This was done by way of a highly dangerous substance - chloro-sulphonic acid - pumped under pressure through a jet at the LCP's stern. As soon as the droplets of acid hit the air a huge cloud of white smoke was formed.” Meanwhile, Danny, do you have any specific info on LCP(Sy) 139 & LCP(Sy) 289 from 704 Flotilla? I’m now thinking (thanks to Mike & Michel S) that they were the craft that led in 13/18th Hussars DDs. Arty
Arty, I have not come across the chloro sulphuric acid type of smoke before. Apart from the large oil based generators all the rest, as used in grenades, smoke projectors, shells and smoke pots have used zinc oxide and carbon tetrachloride to produce zinc chloride vapour. I imagined a rack of smoke pots like those in Dannys photo 3. I am fairly sure that they are naval No14 smoke generators. They have a heavier base than the No24. Mike
Mike, Either way chloro sulphuric acid sounds particularly nasty. The stuff was apparently also known as “FS”. It’s apparent there was various smoke equipment in use on British LCPL(L)s. If you’ve got an hour or two go to: http://www.maritime.org/doc/smoke/index.htm This doc is very detailed info on US naval smoke equipment. From the site: “The smoke producing agents are HC or hexachlorethane type smoke mixture, FS or sulfur trioxide in chlorosulfonic acid, FM or titanium tetrachloride, and WP or white phosphorus.” The variant that Lt Kitching was referring to is apparently the equivalent of the US Mark 2 Smoke Screen Generator - see attached pic from maritime.org. Elsewhere I’ve determined that the Mk. 3 H.C. smoke generator was the US equivalent of the British No. 24 H.C. smoke generator. The Americans apparently used both US & Brit equipment. At some point before D-Day they acquired no less than 46,000 No. 24 H.C. smoke generators. See two more attached pics from maritime.org. Arty
I knew I has seen the large equipment shown in Danny's photo 1 before. It has taken some time to find it. This is a photo taken on one of the exercises and the two nearest LCA have the same equipment. Somewhere I have another photo which describes it as silencer equipment for use on raiding operations. Since I cannot find the reference I cannot evaluate it. I can see that either of Arty's equipments, or equivalent British types could be fitted to LCP(L) and possibly both were. The larger would be good for laying a long screen along the shore or around craft and ships while the smoke pots would be useful for an AA screen. I have seen accounts of a number of stationary craft laying smoke for AA defence on occasion. I will reread my documents and Arty's link to see if there are any more clues. Mike
Hi, I have had a look at a few things I have and came up with the following on RN smoke equipment fitted to LC. I know there are some photos/information missing so happy to be corrected on any errors or omissions. CSA Equipment - Two types in use “High Pressure” and “Low Pressure”. Did not have the same length of time emitting smoke(?). Photo 1 shows what I believe is the “High Pressure” type, note bucket of water on standby. Photos 2 and 3 show it between two smoke floats on a model of a Fairmile “D”. Photo 4 shows what I believe to be the “Low Pressure” type mounted on a LCS(M) Mk 3. Smoke Float Mk 6 and Smoke Generator - Two types of filling used, “HCE Smoke Composition” and “CTC Smoke Composition”. Smoke emission between ten and twenty minutes. Burned on the craft on in the water. Once started could not be stopped. Photo 6 shows two Smoke Floats. Photos 5 shows Smoke Generators on the stern of an LCI(S). Mike’s photo shows the Smoke Float. 4inch BL Mortar Smoke Float - Content “HCE Smoke Composition”. Smoke emission approximately one to two minutes. LCP(L) Smoke Layers - Both types of CSA equipment fitted to craft. At one stage it was planned to put two sets of Low Pressure CSA equipment on each craft plus two units of four No 24 Smoke Generators. Also to be added was a “Flame and Glare Baffle”. In early 1943 the first LCP(L) was fitted with the CSA equipment and a locally built frame for the Smoke Generators. I do not have any photos showing these items in detail. Photo 7 shows a LCP(L) fitted with CSA and the baffle in Normandy. Arty, I will have a look and see if I have any of the information you are after. Regards Danny
Arty, No LCP(Sy) were planned for SWORD during the assault phase, as mentioned by Mike in his post earlier in this thread. The two LCP allocated to SWORD for DD navigation duties (LTIN 509 and 511) were diversely identified in the Naval Orders as "L.C.P.(L) (Navigation)", "LCP(L) NAV.", "L.C. (N)" or just "LCN", which cannot be another designation of LCP(Sy) as both are used within the same paragraph (see attachment). In several places in the Naval Orders L.C.P. (Sy) are clearly mentioned as allocated only to Assault Forces J and G during the assault phase. See this extract from ONEAST 14 [Naval Orders page 2667]: "Instructions for L.C.P. (SY) 18. For the assault phase of the operation, Forces G and J are each allocated 3 L.C.P. (SY) of the 712th L.C.P. (L) Flotilla for duty with the D.D. tanks. 19. As soon as practicable after the initial landings, the Naval Commanders of Assault Forces G and J are each to order one L.C.P. (SY) to report to the Assault Force Commander of Assault Force S in area SWORD. Each Assault Force will then have 2 L.C.P. (SY) who will operate as directed by their particular Assault Force Commander." The two LCP(Sy) from Force G and J were L.C.P.(Sy) 281 from Force G [page 1446] and L.C.P. (SY) 292 of Group 311 (Force J) [pages 0757 & 0813]. As you know the 2 LCP(Sy) remaining with Force G were L.C.P.(Sy) 177 (Senior Officer) and L.C.P.(Sy) 291, but I could not find those in Force J nor the pennants of the 2 LCN in Force S. Now, because no LCN is mentioned in the Green List, it could be that LCP(Sy) 139 & 289 were called in to take up the role of LCN, or were actually misidentified LCN, but there is no evidence for that so far. Additionally, the Green List gives a total of 18 LCP(L) (including 2 LCP(SY)) for the two LCP(L) Flotillas (704 & 707) in Assault Group S3, when the Naval Orders shows a total of 20 LCP(L) (including 2 LCN), so there must have been craft from at least another flotilla involved. Finally, one more extract from the Naval Orders showing the equipment fitted to LCN, with a rather distressing wish from the writer! Michel
Michel, In attempting to prove that LCP(Sy) 139 & LCP(289) were not the craft operating as LCP(L)(Navigation) for the DDs in the Sword area I think you have in fact inadvertently confirmed that they were!!!! Thanks for that Paragraph 18.b in your attached info states: "Both LCP(L)(Navigation) are to be ready to carry out inshore survey. They are NOT to be used for despatch boat duties." The mutiplicity of desigations used for LCP(L)s equipped for Navigation is in this case irrelevant. And by the way I'd long since established the LTINs of those craft Meanwhile Paragraph 18. c confirms that the two LCP(Sy) that were to move from Juno & Gold had a specific role to perform (ie. surveying Gooseberry V). My conclusion is that no LCP(Sy) were to operate in the survey role in the Sword during the assault phase, but after the assault had gone in it looks like Sword had 4 LCP(Sy) performing survey tasks. At Walcheren in Nov44 there are 2 LCP(Sy) listed in the order of battle (according to one study at least), and guess what role they were performing - "Navigational leaders"... Regards LCNs I've dug up a snippet from JL Moulton's "Battle for Antwerp" which says: "Landing Craft personnel, Survey - LCP(Sy) The same design as above [ie. LCP(L)] fitted with an additional compass, chart table and a QH2 type radar as navigational leader to other landing craft. A much more elaborate navigational outfit converted the LCP(L) to the LCN, which appeared too late for operational employment. The names are confusing; normally 'Survey' would indicate the more fully equipped craft....." And a question for you, whereabouts did you find the extracts from ONEAST 14??? Arty
Not a particularly exciting picture. Could it be that the 'navigational aids' are simply more officers on board? The document appears to have been produced later than 1950, so it's possible that "LCP(L) fitted with navigational aids" is used because of confusion over their original designations and/or roles.
Hi Idler, Thanks for posting that photo. I know how hard it can be getting a good shot of the photos at Kew. LCP(L) 141 was Fitted with : SB Q k Part of 417 Training Flotilla, Portsmouth Command, HMS Northney, Hayling Island in June 1944. SB = Screened and Bonded Q = QH k = Kermath I have taken the liberty of enlarging a section of your photo and marked the Framecoil. The “?” might be the “Visual Unit” for the QH device. Regards Danny
Thanks very much Idler, A nice clear picture. Presumably used for navigation training then. That would account for the number of officers. It looks as though the canvas tilt is actually covering a wooden structure. There is no sign of the tilt frames. I like the portholes. There was a question about the frame coil on another thread some time ago. I think Noel Burgess either asked or answered it. Cannot find it now. Mike
I also pulled DEFE 2/1112 but only managed to get a bit of it done before closing time. Here are the highlights: It's reassuring to know that they were as confused then as we are now.
Arty, I'm not trying to prove that LCP(Sy) 139 & 289 are not the craft operating as LCP(L)(Navigation), but just to show that we have no proof either way The possibility that LCP(Sy) were used in lieu of possibly unavailable LC(P)(Navigation) is just that: a mere possibility. IF it was the case, and, again, we do not have any indication that it was so, I concede there is a slightly higher chance that they might be LCP(Sy) 139 & 289 (because they were part of a Flotilla allocated to SWORD = 704 Flotilla) rather than the remaining two in 712 Flotilla not allocated to GOLD or JUNO (i.e. LCP(Sy) 154 & 201). Another possibility is that LCP(L) equipped for navigation, but still not LCP(Sy), were used, although they were not designated as LCP(L) (Navigation) in the Green List as of 5 Jun 44. That would be my preferred choice, because the Naval Commander Force S report specifically mentions "LCP(L)(Navigation)" rather than "LCP(Sy)": "The Narrative Phase II.-The Assault and D Day (...) L.C.P. (L). 82. It had been planned that 12 L.C.P. (L) should be towed by the major craft of the groups they were to accompany and that two should be lifted in each of the three " Empire " class L.S.I. In fact, only five L.C.P. (L) were finally lifted in these ships, owing to hoisting difficulties at the last moment in one case. The remaining 13, which included the two L.C.P. (L) (Navigation) were therefore towed. (...) 106. Group I was composed as follows :- (...) 2 L.C.P.(L) (Navigation) (a ) Temp. Act. Lieut.-Commander D. W. AMER, R.N.R., in Command of C.O.P.P.6. Responsible for leading team " A " of D.D. tanks in to the beach. (b ) Temp. Lieutenant P. G. WILDE, R.N.V.R., second in Command of C.O.P.P.6. Responsible for leading team " B " of D.D. tanks in to the beach." If 'team " A "' means 'A Sqn', this would mean that Lt-Cmdr AMER's craft was LTIN 509 and Lt WILDE's was LTIN 511 (by the way, I never doubted you knew of those two LTINs - I had included them merely for completeness' sake). Now, a search for those two names gave interesting results, with the conclusion that Lt PG WILDE's name was actually spelt "WILD": http://coppheroes.org/coppists/copp6.htm which then led to a most interesting link: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/listing/object-205004716 Here are the captions of all 14 photos listed on the link above: View attachment IWM Photos PG Wild.xls It therefore appears that Lieutenant Peter Grenville WILD, R.N.V.R., was on board LCP(L) 286, which had "triangular navigational markers mounted aft", in SWORD Area on D Day ) If 'team " A "' means 'A Sqn', and although the IWM captions mention QUEEN WHITE, LCP(L) 286 would thus have taken the role of LCP(L) (Navigation) LTIN 511, and perhaps have been a LCP(L) (Navigation), whatever this may have been. LCP(L) 286 is noted in the Naval Orders as the craft with Acting Tempy. Captain K.C.I. WEEDY, R.M. as Flotilla Officer (707 Assault Flotilla) on board, but he may or may not have transferred to another craft for the assault. LCP(L) 286 is noted as "Lost in Operation Neptune, June-July 1944". As for Lieutenant-Commander Donald Wolfenden AMER, the great Unit Histories website: http://www.unithistories.com/officers/RNR_officersA.html gives him as on board "LCN(A) 189" at Normandy (one more new designation!!). LCP(L) 189 was also part of 707 Assault Flotilla and also noted as "Lost in Operation Neptune, June-July 1944". I have not checked where this information came from, but it might be from the Recommendation for Awards. I think we can therefore safely conclude that the two craft leading the DD tanks on SWORD were LCP(L) 286 and LCP(L) (or LCP(A) or LCN(A) or whatever) 189, most probably LTIN 511 & 509 respectively. It would be most interesting to see the 14 photos made by Lt WILD, not least for the various beach defences the captions say they show! I wonder what these "triangular navigational markers mounted aft on Landing Craft Personnel (Large) 286" might be, as described in the caption for HU72030. Michel
Well done Idler. It was beginning to look as though LCP(Sy) and LCP(L) (Navigation) were identical in equipment and role. Not even all the LCP(Sy) were actually identical of course. It does seem that the only difference was the title. A fascinating insight into the workings of the world of service committees who can spend time on such trivia when the fate of nations, not to mention that of thousands of personnel, is being decided. Mike.
