Looking at a photo re rafts for the 30 Corps crossing

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Chris C, Jun 12, 2022.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    BU 2069 - this was posted a while ago in a modeling discussion. Trux Models. 1990 to 2005.

    Trux gave some good information including the rate at which these class 50/60 bridges could transport vehicles.

    In the IWM description, "Churchill tanks wait their turn to cross the Rhine", but Trux identified this as an AVRE "acting as anchor". Now, I assume this didn't mean to weigh down the raft, but to keep it from floating freely away if some cables broke.

    I just had a look at my copy of the 79th Armoured Division book and it did say that one of the Assault RE units operated the rafts. And according to Warpaint Vol 2(?), the Assault RE units had four-digit serials 123x which shows that the 123 on the back of the Churchill is probably its serial - unfortunately is just barely cut off. So that would suggest that the IWM interpretation is wrong. I did wonder however about the apparent towing attachment at the back of the Churchill - could this be a Crocodile without the trailer, or were AVREs equipped with a towing hook?

    I'm pretty bad at analyzing photos but, is the Churchill's turret turned to the side? It sort of looks that way from the shape of the top of the turret but I'd have expected the barrel to be facing left based on its shape and that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd better look at more Churchill photos tomorrow. Maybe we can see a bit of shadow from the petard barrel on the right edge of the image?

    I'm going to come back to this tomorrow with whatever information I've got to try to time this photo. According to a post of stolpi's, 8th Armoured Brigade didn't get to start crossing until the evening of 24 March and apparently one battery of 61st Anti-Tank Regiment had higher priority(!). I wish we had a chart of the crossing order for the rafts.

    RHINE CROSSING 1945: The Rees bridgehead (30 Corps in operation 'Turnscrew')

    BU 2069.jpg
     
  2. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Chris C! The original IWM caption is this:
    caption.png

    If you look at the series you may find more clues. BU 2065:
    BU 2065.png
    2065 caption.png

    BU 2066
    BU 2066.png
    2066 caption.png

    BU 2067 is a close up of the RAF winch and operator (not posted here), then BU 2068 follows:
    BU2068.png
    2068 caption.png

    And then your photo BU 2069 follows.

    BU 2070 is a crappy wide shot with a Churchill on a raft at quite some distance.

    Then the photographic subject changes BU 2071 shows the airborne armada approaching the Rhine on March 24th. A photo made in a different location by a different photographer (Capt. Malindine near Weeze).

    The first photo in the series made by Sgt Palmer is BU 2064 - not a good shot but interesting: does it show a second raft in the background? Here is BU 2064: BU 2064.png
    2064 caption.png
     
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  3. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Some observations and thoughts.

    AVREs were used to tow Class 50/60 pontoons to their launching points on the near bank. They were then available to act as anchors. They also carried logs to reinforce the banks.

    The Class 50/60 raft needed two sets of cables. There were two fixed ferry cables, one upstream and one downstream, to prevent the raft being carried downstream by the current and possibly by wind. These cables were anchored and tensioned by AVREs. The raft was connected to the ferry cables by snatch blocks or bicycle travellers, the ferry cables being stationary.

    Motive power for the Rhine crossing was provided by RAF balloon winches via cables. There was one cable and winch for the outward trip and one for the return trip.

    The Class 50/60 rafts operated in pairs on the same site (some distance apart).

    AVREs certainly had rear tow hooks. Sledges, gutted carriers and SBG bridges on wheels were often towed.

    Hope this is helpful.

    Mike.
     
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  4. The Story of 79th Armoured Division has three Assault Squadrons operating rafts on 30 Corps front: 617 (42 Aslt Regt RE), 79 (5 Aslt Regt RE) and 284 (6 Aslt Regt RE) Aslt Sqns RE. I believe the AVsRE (and Churchill ARV) shown on BU2064-2070 belong to 617 Aslt Sqn RE. See the name "WAVELL II" on BU2068:
    AVRE 3A 'WAVELL II' T172617-C prob 617 ASRE, 24 Mar 45 - BU_02068 [Palmer].jpg

    Michel
     
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  5. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    KevinT 's spreadsheet of tank names (V6) gives WAVELL II as belonging to 16th Assault Squadron, 42nd Assault Regiment. I think that must be an error.
     
  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Mike (Trux), that is most helpful, thank you. I decided to post about this last night when I got to wondering which Churchill tanks were in the area, because I realized there were no Churchill gun tanks landed in the bridgehead.

    Did they ferry an AVRE to the opposite bank to secure things on the other side?
     
  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    alberk thank you for posting the series of photos - I hadn't thought of that! I am delighted to see an Archer in BU 2067. The photo series hits home how much mist there is still - which actually pegs the time as the morning of the 24th even without any additional information, I think.

    The entry for 61st Anti-Tank Regiment's war diary is not extremely informative, but this and the following days' entries only mention 241nd Battery Tac HQ crossing on the 24th - 242nd on the 25th, while the other two batteries were involved in the pepperpot barrage on the 23rd and crossed a bit later. Also note that 241nd Battery Tac HQ was set up by 0800.

    So I think that identifies the Archer's battery (and if I check my notes, which troop, since only one troop of that battery had Archers) and puts the time as pretty early in the morning of the 24th.

    DSCF8530.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  8. Yes, I was the one who mistakenly ID's WAVELL II as 16 Aslt Sqn at the time. I have since changed my mind in view of new info :D
     
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  9. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    I have always assumed that there was an AVRE on the far bank but I cannot find any conclusive evidene for it. Obviously there must have been a crossing without an AVRE on the far bank to take the AVRE across. The text book operation of a Class 50/60 raft uses a series of earth anchors. These are simply lengths of steel with holes down their length. Long steel rods are hammered through the holes and into the earth. As many such anchors as thought necessary can be used.

    Self Propelled antu tank guns were the priority load for the rafts. It was important in any such crossing that anti tank defences should be in place as soon as possible.

    Mike

    PS.
    I have diagrams in books but at present I do not have a working scanner.
     
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  10. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Chris C,
    on this page of the war diary you posted a bomber crashing down in flames is mentioned. Also it says 100 x - what does the x stand for?

    Furthermore, would it be possible to also post the following page of the war diary (25th/26th March) please? I am interested in your other thread on the events at Bienen and am trying to match your information with the German accounts.
     
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  11. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    "100x" would be "100 yards".

    Of course I'm happy to share the next pages.

    DSCF8531.JPG DSCF8532.JPG
     
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  12. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    PS were you thinking of the nighttime action with the SPs, though? For that you'd want 3rd Canadian Anti-Tank Regiment's war diary.
     
  13. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Yes, indeed - the nighttime engagement at Biene that you tried to make sense of.
     
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  14. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Will send you a PM
     

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