Looking for info on Great Uncle

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by rodonletour, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    Can anybody help me locate my Great Uncles crash site. His name is Andrew Syme Adger, he served with RAFVR during WW2. His Lancaster was shot down on 2nd March 1943 after a raid on Berlin. The official report states that the plane was missing in the sea off the coast of Biarritz, although the entire crew of the craft are buried in Berlin War Cemetry. His aircraft number was W4825 OF-H. I am trying to locate the crash site where the plane was discovered around 1950. Can anybody please help I would be really grateful.
    I have all of the information on everything except where the plane was found.
     
  2. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Hello and welcome to the forum

    I can't add much more than you probably already know but I'll post the info I have for other forum members to read

    1-2 March 1943

    97 Squadron
    Lancaster I W4825 OF-H
    Op. Berlin

    Sgt. A. Innes +
    Sgt. R. Unwin +
    Sgt. C E. Bellamy +
    Sgt. H. Mcaulay Frew +
    Sgt. A S. Adger +
    Sgt. L A. Horne +
    Sgt. J. Little +

    Took off 1849 hrs Woodhall Spa. All are buried in the Berlin 1939-1945 War Cemetery.

    BCL Vol.4 - Chorley.


    The Berlin raid of 1/2 March 1943

    302 aircraft - 156 Lancasters, 86 Halifaxes, 60 Stirlings despatched to Berlin.
    The Pathfinders experienced difficulty in producing concentrated marking because individual parts of the extensive built-up city area of Berlin could not be distinguished on the H2S screens. Bombing photographs showed that the attack was spread over more than 100 square miles with the main emphasis in the south-west of the city. However, because larger numbers of aircraft were now being used and because those aircraft were now carrying a greater average bomb load, the proportion of the force which did hit Berlin caused more damage than any previous raid to this target. This type of result - with significant damage still being caused by only partially successful attacks - was becoming a regular feature of Bomber Command raids. Some bombs hit the Telefunken works at which the H2S set taken from the Stirling shot down near Rotterdam was being reassembled. The set was completely destroyed in the bombing but a Halifax of 35 Squadron with an almost intact set crashed in Holland on this night and the Germans were able to resume their research into H2S immediately. 17 aircraft - 7 Lancasters, 6 Halifaxes, 4 Stirlings - lost, 5.6 per cent of the force.
     
  3. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    my great uncle Andrew syme adger was a wireless operator flying lancasters with 97 sqn,he died after attacking berlin on the night of 1st/2nd march 1943, the official R A F report says the whole crew was lost at sea, which is strange because they are all buried in the berlin war cemetery, the planes serial number is w4825h code OF-H, the one piece of info that i cannot find is the crash site, can anybody help as this has been a family mystery since the accident, even putting me in the right direction would help.
    many thanks rod
     
  4. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Bomber Command Losses Vol.4 - Chorley doesn't give much more info, although it does not mention a sea loss......

    1-2 March 1943

    97 Squadron
    Lancaster W4825 OF-H
    Op. Berlin

    Sgt. A. Innes +
    Sgt. R. Unwin +
    Sgt. E C. Bellamy +
    Sgt. H. McAulai Frew +
    Sgt. A S. Adger +
    Sgt. L A. Horne +
    Sgt. J. Little +

    Took off 1849 hrs Woodhall Spa. All are buried in Berlin 1939-1945 War Cemetery.

    97 Squadron Association - Introduction to the site:

    The Berlin raid of 1/2 March 1943

    302 aircraft - 156 Lancasters, 86 Halifaxes, 60 Stirlings despatched to Berlin.
    The Pathfinders experienced difficulty in producing concentrated marking because individual parts of the extensive built-up city area of Berlin could not be distinguished on the H2S screens. Bombing photographs showed that the attack was spread over more than 100 square miles with the main emphasis in the south-west of the city. However, because larger numbers of aircraft were now being used and because those aircraft were now carrying a greater average bomb load, the proportion of the force which did hit Berlin caused more damage than any previous raid to this target. This type of result - with significant damage still being caused by only partially successful attacks - was becoming a regular feature of Bomber Command raids. Some bombs hit the Telefunken works at which the H2S set taken from the Stirling shot down near Rotterdam was being reassembled. The set was completely destroyed in the bombing but a Halifax of 35 Squadron with an almost intact set crashed in Holland on this night and the Germans were able to resume their research into H2S immediately. 17 aircraft - 7 Lancasters, 6 Halifaxes, 4 Stirlings - lost, 5.6 per cent of the force.

    Might be worth applying for form 1180 (accident record card) for W4825 from RAF Hendon.... Department of Research & Information Services
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    thanks for that lead, if anybody else knows of anything let me know, thanks again rod
     
  7. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    If a plane was shot down over Germany in the second world war and not recoverered for many years, someone must have details of the crash site,does anybody out there know who i can ask. W4825 0F-H crew are buried in Berlin but RAF records say plane was lost at sea, I am writing a book about my great uncle andrew sysme adger for my family and have loads of info on him but the one thing i cannot find is the crash site and to be honest its doing my nut in, please can someone help...
    many many thanks
    rod
     
  8. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Rod

    May I offer a word of advice ?

    I see that you have made various posts under different thread titles but all, in effect, asking for help regarding the death of a great-uncle.

    In the interest of the good people on this site who are qualified to help you with your research keep to the original thread title with which you started and, most of all, be patient.

    Good research does takes time.

    Good luck !

    Ron
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    hello and Welcome

    Adding more info to the post would help others assist you

    Is this the gentleman
    Sergeant ANDREW SYME ADGER

    1369466, 97 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    who died age 23
    on 02 March 1943
    Son of William John and Annie Adger, of Kelty, Fife.
    Remembered with honour
    BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
    CWGC :: Casualty Details
     
  10. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    Edit

    After checking further I have decided that the information quoted was dubiuos to say the least, please ignore.
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Ron G
    I see that you have made various posts under different thread titles but all, in effect, asking for help regarding the death of a great-uncle.

    In the interest of the good people on this site who are qualified to help you with your research keep to the original thread title with which you started and, most of all, be patient.


    Good point, Ron.
    I've merged all the posts / threads as they are all about same subject.
     
  12. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    hi cl1,yes thats the man,if you know anymore let me know, sorry if i have opened more threads about the same man but i am getting nowhere really slowly and it is very frustrating, thankyou everybody out there who reads and replies to these requests,i appreciate your help very much and do not take anything for granted, if it wasnt for your dedication then many people would be forgotten, they should all be remembered for the sacrifice they gave for their country.
    rod
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm a bit confused by this thread as it's duplicated.

    One thing I would say if the plane was lost near Biarritz (A very nice part of South West France near the Spainish Border) and some/all of the crew are buried in Berlin then you may want to go down the Prisoner of War route for those crew members.

    The BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY mainly contains those killed over Berlin and East Germany during the war and those killed whilst PoW's.

    The two locations are over 1,000 miles apart and I can not think of any reason to transfer dead bodies such a great distance. Many RAF personel were buried in the nearest cemetery (Local Church Yard etc.) to where they were killed/crashed.

    Unless the location of the Crash is wrong. I think you need to apply for some appropriate official records to get some confirmation of what happened.
     
    CL1 likes this.
  14. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    rod: What information have you about the wreckage being discovered in 1950? if you can post that up, it'll give us something more to work on.
    Also tell us why you think the aircraft was lost at sea, and why Biarritz which is outside of the range of a Lancaster attacking Berlin.

    The information you have posted is so conflicting that without clearer explanation it is going to be hard to come up with helpful answers, especially after so long.

    Have you contacted the 97 Squadron Association, have you got great uncles Service Record or contact with relatives of other crew members? Have you obtained the Station War Diary and ORB to see if any reports of their Lanc were seen going down? What about night fighter claims that night?

    You can't just sit there and expect us to write a book for you, so please bear with us while we try to help with the limited info you've provided.

    It may be that when the aircraft wreckage was located, the crew remains were also found. That could be why they are now in the Berlin War Cemetery. Have you tried contacting the CWGC asking for further information about all the crew graves and where the bodies were initially? That would narrow down a location for you. It may well be that there is a small similar sounding place in Germany that has got confused with Biarritz!!
     
  15. rachel-E

    rachel-E Senior Member

    Rodonletour,

    I'm no help to you information-wise but i've been searching the net for your quest. I have found someone looking for the same flight as you.. I don't know if you have been in touch already but here it is.. Good Luck..

    Jan 15, 2004 10:52pm
    I am looking really hard for information concerning my grandfather, his crewmates or any flights that went out the night of March 01/43 on a bombing run to Berlin. The Lancaster my grandfather was on (Sgt. Harry MacAulay-Frew)is listed as follows : Serial # "W4825" OF-H, left Woodhall Spa at 18.49 Hours, March 01st/43 (also Harry's birthday) for operations to Berlin and never came back. Missing crew is listed as follows
    Pilot-Sgt.A.Innes
    Navigator-Sgt.B.Unwin
    Bomb Aimer-Sgt.C.E.Bellamy
    Flight Engineer-Sgt.H.MacAulay-Frew
    Wireless Opr.-Sgt.A.S.Adger
    Gunner-Sgt.L.A.Horne
    Gunner-Sgt.J.Little
    I am looking for as much information on any of these people as possible (Canadian relatives perhaps?) and I'm desparately looking for photographs of any kind of these men who died. Any help whatsoever would be GREATLY appreciated!!!!
    Thank you
    Beck
    Beck DaCosta
    beckerz27 at hotmail dot com
    London, Canada

    Regards
    Rachel..

    p.s this post was in 2004.. She may have found out a fair bit since then.. ;o)
     
  16. rodonletour

    rodonletour Member

    thankyou everybody for your time, i dont expect anybody to write the book for me but any info helps a great deal, some of your postings have sent me in new directions which is great.
    W4825 OF-H was shot down on the 1st/2nd march 1943, the official RAF report says it was lost over the coast of Bairritz, i presume the RAF said this as the plane never returned to base, however, the plane was found around 1950 in a field and all crew where on board, the bodies were then taken to berlin for burial and the crash site is what i am after as i believe the locals erected a memorial stone.
    thankyou for all the new leads.
    rod
     
  17. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    rod: As suggested, you have been misled.
    The aircraft that crashed on 2nd March near Biarritz was from 207 Squadron!

    It's a completely different loss and this question on another forum also quotes the serial for your great uncles aircraft.

    23rd May 2003. Hi, I am a local historian and I look for informations about two Avro 683 Lancaster lost near Biarritz in 1943: W 4825 (2 March 1943) W 4954 (28 April 1943). The first: where it get down (Biarritz Bayonne or Cap Breton?); visibly in ocean because a man (Sergeant R. Brown) was found and buried in the cementery of Sabaou in Biarritz. What are the name, patch and code of these planes ? The list and fotos of their crew? What were the nature of their respective missions and with which bomber group and squadron operated them? Anybody can help me?
    Thank you very much Best regards, Eric DUPRE


    Name: BROWN, RICHARD
    Initials: R
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant (Flt. Engr.)
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 207 Sqdn.
    Age: 25
    Date of Death: 02/03/1943
    Service No: 944643
    Additional information: Son of James Edward and Edith Esther Brown, of Thornhill, Dewsbury, Yorkshire.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Div. 9. Grave 6731B.
    Cemetery: BIARRITZ (DU SABAOU) COMMUNAL CEMETERY

    As you will now realise, possibly because of the same date of loss, Sgt Brown has been incorrectly linked to W4825, and thus sent you on a wild goose chase to try and link Biarritz and Berlin!!
     
  18. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    rod: As suggested, you have been misled.
    The aircraft that crashed on 2nd March near Biarritz was from 207 Squadron!

    It's a completely different loss and this question on another forum also quotes the serial for your great uncles aircraft.




    Name: BROWN, RICHARD
    Initials: R
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Sergeant (Flt. Engr.)
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text: 207 Sqdn.
    Age: 25
    Date of Death: 02/03/1943
    Service No: 944643
    Additional information: Son of James Edward and Edith Esther Brown, of Thornhill, Dewsbury, Yorkshire.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Div. 9. Grave 6731B.
    Cemetery: BIARRITZ (DU SABAOU) COMMUNAL CEMETERY

    As you will now realise, possibly because of the same date of loss, Sgt Brown has been incorrectly linked to W4825, and thus sent you on a wild goose chase to try and link Biarritz and Berlin!!


    207 Sqn Lancaster I ED533 EM-N Op: Gardening

    Sgt R Isaacs +
    Sgt R Brown +
    F/O G A Bisset +
    F/S K G Peters +
    Sgt W O shelley +
    Sgt J W webster +
    F/O F B Hawkins RAAF +

    T/o 1833 Langer to lay mines in French waters. Presumed lost over the sea. Sgt Brown, whose body was washed ashore on 27th May 1943, is buried in the Department of Basses-Pyrenees at Biarritz (du sabrou) Communal Cemetery. The others have no known graves. F/O Bisset is a graduate from Aberdeen University.

    BCL Vol 4 1943 W R Chorley

    1.3.43 11 Lancasters detailed to bomb Berlin. 9 aircraft reported successfully bombing the target or target area and many good fires were seen, the glow from which was visible 150 to 200 miles away. Weather was fine with no cloud and only slight haze. One aircraft abandoned the mission due to technical failure and one aircraft, with Sgt Innes and crew are missing.
    97 Squadron Association - Flight Operations
     
  19. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    welcome to the forum

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    however, the plane was found around 1950 in a field and all crew where on board, the bodies were then taken to berlin for burial and the crash site is what i am after as i believe the locals erected a memorial stone.


    Rod,

    What is your source for the above piece of information?

    Regards
    Andy
     

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