Montlucon. September 1943.

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by James S, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I obtained these back in the late 1980's froma friend in France who was writing a book on the RAF raid made on 15th September 43 on the Dunlop tyre plant near the town of Montlucon in central France ( within the Vichy region).
    By chance my letter and one onde from Claude landed on a desk in the RAF Museum within a few days of each oter and the gentleman who dealt with us put us in touch with each other.

    The raid was the a Halifax and Stirling affair drawing aircraft from 3,4,6 and 8 Groups - approx 330 aircraft , to be carried out at low altitude but without endangering the aircraft .
    Marking was to be accurate , a master bomber directed the raid and no secondary targets were to be bombed.

    The planners attempted to take into account the need to avoid casualties within the local population and with a few exceptions the bombing was very accurate.

    The order for the read stated;
    "H. Special instructions.
    Note.1 Window IS NOT REPEAT NOT TO BE USED.

    Note.2 The attack is to be carried out at the best tactical altitude height consistent with the defences encountered , attacks should not however be carried out belwo 4,000 ft.

    Note3. In order to cause the maxium damage to this target without avoidable civilian casualties the need for extreme accuracy in bombing is to be impressed on crews at briefing. Alternative targets are not to be attacked.

    4. P.F.F Methods.
    1. The method will be Newgaven ground marking.
    2. The attack will open with sticks of flares and yellow and reed T.I. dropped in the target area.These are for the use of P.F.F. only and must be ignored by the mainforce.
    3. The aiming point will then be marked with T.I. green.
    4. Main force aircraft should aim their bombs at the estimated centre of all green T.I. visible.
    5. There will be a raid commentator in the target area. Main force aircraft should listen out on "Darky" frequency. call signs will be as follows.
    raid Commentator "Appan".
    Main Force "Ravens".
    Blind Markers "Skylarks".
    Visual Markers "Old Crows"
    Backers up "Black Bird".
    6. T.I. will cascade from 3,000 ft.
    ( From AIR 14/3106 PFF 127266).

    The nearby village of Tizon was hit and fires started there did attract a few aircraft , Claude showed me several huge bomb craters which were left as they were , at that time they were still an impressive reminder of what had taken place.
    The main weight of the attack fell on the factory which as you can see was heavily damaged.
    The Damage Assessment based on photos taken the next day estimated that of 26 major buildings 12 had been destroyed , 12 seriously damaged and 4 slightly damaged.
    ( A detailed listing of the estimated damage to various seectors of the plant follows , 31 buildings are identified.)
    The report also mentions that an estimated 60 workers houese adjacent to the factory were judged to have been destroyed , largely by fire.

    The Vichy autorities were quick to make a propaganda opportunity out of the raid and the Germans quickly followed suit.
    Three aircraft were lost in the raid two falling locally.

    This raid was the first entry in my uncle's logbook , a "milk run" which saw little interference from the Luftwaffe, their time up and down can be seen in the photo of his log book ( see "Family at war" thread).

    The details as per the operational order I will add later.
    When I saw the plant in the 1980's it was run by a Japanese firm who produced tennis balls.
    The war time buildings had been repaired and damage made good , inspite of what you see in the photos it could still be seen to be the same factory.
    Claude did publish his book "Objectiv Montlucon" which was published in the early 90's , it sold out.
    (Well done that man.).

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    This photo of the plant was taken in the mid 1980's.

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    The workers housing close to the factory.

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    From Google eartyh the factory complex as it is todat looking north just beyond the marshalling yard.
    The square complex to the south of the factory was accomadation built for workers.
    from the photo it would seem that the site has been redeveloped although the chimney still remains as an orientation point, some of the building alongside it seem to date from pre war years.
    (Shadow cast by the chimney can be seen.).
     
    Peter Clare and Owen like this.
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    James,

    An extremely interesting post to read, especially with the photographs taken at the time.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  3. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I would give absolute credit to Claude (Grimmaud) for giving me these copies , without his generosity I would never have seen them.There were also a number of B-17's from the 8th USAF which flew on this raid all of which returned without loss.
    He gave me approx 15 photos of the plant , he has the originals - which were taken by a foreman at the plant the morning after the attack.

    When you look at the depth of the second crater it really brings home to you the intense nature of the bombing and the accuracy.
     
  4. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    James,

    Great thread, very interesting thanks for posting.

    Looking through BCL's Vol.4 I find that Chorley gives on the above Montlucon raid four aircraft were lost.......

    10 Squadron.
    Halifax II HR920. ZA-L
    Four crew lost.
    Two pow.
    One evaded.

    15 Squadron.
    Stirling III BF569 LS-V
    Seven crew lost.

    427 Squadron.
    Halifax V DK253 ZL-M
    Seven crew lost.

    428 Squadron.
    Halifax V LK913 NA-N
    Four crew pow.
    Four crew evaded.
     
  5. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Thanks for the correction on that Peter , I should trust less to my memory :)
    As far as I can recall Claude was visited by some of those who evaded, he really did a first rate job of researching and writing about the raid.
    Unfortunately his book was only published in France.
     
  6. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    The Methods list is interesting and shows the standard process for later it the war with Pathfinders dropping markers (sounds like what happend was a single aircraft dropped pathfinder markers, which then the pathfinders then used to drop the markers for the main force. Then a controller directing in the main force onto the main markers.

    Kev
     
  7. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    This was the last time a "master bomber" / "master of ceremonies" was used until Spring of 1944. ( From Middlebrooks BCWD ).

    Kfz,I should have "The Final Raid Report" not far away , I will extract a few details from it - I found them to be good reading.
     
  8. stevechippy

    stevechippy Junior Member

    hi my grandad was sgt eric t potts of halifax dk253 of the 427 sqaudron who died on harmondsworth moor, learning more about him every day, all crew lost
     
  9. Oggie2620

    Oggie2620 Senior Member

    hi my grandad was sgt eric t potts of halifax dk253 of the 427 sqaudron who died on harmondsworth moor, learning more about him every day, all crew lost
    welcome aboard :) Ask and these guys will try and fill out more information for you.
    Dee
     
  10. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    hi my grandad was sgt eric t potts of halifax dk253 of the 427 sqaudron who died on harmondsworth moor, learning more about him every day, all crew lost

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    On the night of 15-16 September 1943 Halifax V DK253 ZL-M of No.427 Squadron took off from Leeming at 2035 hrs on a raid to Mountlucon. The aircraft crashed homeward bound at Moor Lane, Harmondsworth, Middlesex.

    Seven crew lost.....

    Sgt. A. Chibanoff RCAF
    Sgt. D R. Coe
    P/O. F V. Webb RCAF
    P/O. B. Begbie RCAF
    Sgt. A R J. Gaiger
    Sgt. E T. Potts
    Sgt. H W. Frost RCAF
     
  11. skyhawk

    skyhawk Senior Member

    Just catching up with this thread now. Very interesting account and some great photos. Excellent James
     
  12. maidencanada

    maidencanada Junior Member

    James,

    Great thread, very interesting thanks for posting.

    Looking through BCL's Vol.4 I find that Chorley gives on the above Montlucon raid four aircraft were lost.......

    10 Squadron.
    Halifax II HR920. ZA-L
    Four crew lost.
    Two pow.
    One evaded.

    15 Squadron.
    Stirling III BF569 LS-V
    Seven crew lost.

    427 Squadron.
    Halifax V DK253 ZL-M
    Seven crew lost.

    428 Squadron.
    Halifax V LK913 NA-N
    Four crew pow.
    Four crew evaded.
    Just a note on Peter Clare's post about Squadron 428. The information is correct
    about the POW's that were left behind just after the Halifax V was shot down over France. But, one of the men that were evaded was my Grandfather John M. Nelmes,
    he was the rear turret gunner that survived the crash.

    The names of the POW's were: W/Cdr. D. Smith; P/O E. Bell; F/O H.Dereniuk; and
    P/O R. Malins. The names of the Evaded were: Sgt. C. Heyworth; and Grandpa's Pal
    F/Lt. E. Mason; F/Lt. J. Forman; and none other than Sgt. P/O J. Nelmes.

    I know that Grandpa Nelmes was then in hide out with the French Resistance until their return to England approx. September 22, 1944. The four men lived with the French Marquis in abandoned farm houses and in the forest in make shift tents and shelters. I know Grandpa Nelmes told me they were chased one night by German's and their German Sheppard dogs, they were able to out run them through an open field and then turn around and shot the dogs and Germans with (their) the German made weapons, that were taken by the French Marquis. I know my Grandfather had a close call when he was on the french street of Quarter de la Fontaine (Giat), that a young
    German soldier came around the corner and saluted my Grandfather after he saw the Sgt. patch below the CANADA patch on his left arm, Grandpa just shook his head after the German Whippersnaper left his presence and said that he he should have been shot in his tracks if it were an officer that knew He was the enemy. Talk about a close call.
     
    James S likes this.
  13. maidencanada

    maidencanada Junior Member

    I should also note that the RAF's were; Smith, Heyworth and Malins.... the rest were RCAF
     
  14. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Maidencanada,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    It would appear that your Grandfather had more that his share of excitement and was extremely fortunate to survive given your account.

    Stories of bravery like these make the initial thread come alive.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  15. dbegbie

    dbegbie Junior Member

    I like threads like this, it helps me learn about a subject I know little about.
    Where are the men who were lost buried/commemorated?

    For the plane that crashed in Harmondsworth Moor there is a small monument. The parkland is owned by British Airways, and I was lucky enough to attend when it was commemorated. My Grandfather was the bomb aimer on the flight.:poppy:


    Please see the following link for more information:
    British villager honours downed... | General News | News & Events - News Room | 1 Wing Kingston | Air Force | DND/CF
     
  16. dbegbie

    dbegbie Junior Member

    Please see the following link for more info on ZL-M that was lost on this Raid.

    Halifax Bomber
     
  17. jimm

    jimm Junior Member

    One of the Captured airman from Halifax V LK-913 coded NA-N was my father in laws brother Harry Dereniuk. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW in Stalag Luft 3 (Great Escape), He help build the tunnels but was too far back on the escape list before detection. He was marched out by the Germans when the Russians were closing in and was liberated by the US 14th armored division.
     
  18. DoubleBlack

    DoubleBlack Junior Member

    I thank you all for the information that I have read. On this day of Rememberance, 11,11,11......I am left reflecting on my Uncle, Sgt A. Chibanoff. I have place in heart for all those who served with, and died with him.

    In Rememberance

    Sincerely

    K. Czorny
     
  19. DoubleBlack

    DoubleBlack Junior Member

    If anyone has any photos ot the crew of 427 Squadron.
    Halifax V DK253 ZL-M .....Seven crew lost.

    I would really appreciate seeing them.

    Thanks

    K C
     
  20. mdernick

    mdernick Junior Member

    One of the Captured airman from Halifax V LK-913 coded NA-N was my father in laws brother Harry Dereniuk. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW in Stalag Luft 3 (Great Escape), He help build the tunnels but was too far back on the escape list before detection. He was marched out by the Germans when the Russians were closing in and was liberated by the US 14th armored division.


    I'm sorry for bringing this topic up as I know it's fairly old, but I found it through a Google search and couldn't help but comment.

    The person you mention above, Harry Dereniuk (he later changed his name to Harry Dernick), is my grandfather. I was fairly young when he passed away and never had a true appreciation of all that he went through. Little by little over the years I've heard stories from my dad about what my grandfather said about his experiences. I've heard about the family that helped hide him after the crash. I've heard about his time in the POW camp (he said that out of all the TV shows and movies about WWII POW camps, the only one that came anywhere close to being realistic was "Hogan's Heros"). I've heard about what he went through living off the land during the winter after they were let go. I've heard about how when the US forces finally liberated them, one of the tank drivers handed him his sandwich and he took small little bites saving the rest of it for later, saying that each bite tasted like angel food cake.

    Back in the Spring of 2003, my sister visited the site in France where his plane crashed. The town near the site had set up a memorial that had just recently been dedicated. She met the two women (they were young girls at the time) that helped hide my grandfather the first night after the crash. They both remembered my grandfather, showing my sister where they found him and all they did to help him. I've always wanted to go visit the site but have never had the chance.

    He was one of the most laid back, easy going guys you would ever meet. Thinking of all that he went through, it's easy to understand why nothing later in life ever worried him.
     

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