More Canadian Shermans

Discussion in 'Vehicle Names and Census Numbers' started by KevinT, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    These are all from British Movietone film "Sicilian Victories", again for reference / research only.
    Not sure of the name of the last one seems to start AN(M)?Y, others are AGNES, ATLAS, ALGONQUIN and what looks like ACE but unsure of this one too.
    Names seem to cover Three Rivers, Ontario and Lord Strathcona's Regiment, but could be all from same regiment as some of the names seem to used across several regiments.
    Any advise confirmation appreciated.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  2. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    It looks like "ACE" to me, for what it's worth.
     
  3. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    I looked at the shot, and this is the back end of that tank, and you can see the AoS number is 175, which WOULD be a 14th Armoured Regiment (Calgary Regiment)


    [​IMG]
     
  4. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    AMAZE

    The Census number “seems” to have a number 5 in the middle, which may match AMAZE below

    [​IMG]
     
  5. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi,

    The census number looks like T146511 to me. So certainly not the same tank.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  6. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    Your eyes must be better than mine (which isn’t hard to do)….I can barely make out a 5, let alone the other numbers….

    Cheers
     
  7. The first one should be AMITY. If they are not Canadian films, we might find the original takes on the IWM website in higher quality and then perhaps read the T-nos as well. British Pathé might have them too...
     
  8. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Michel,

    Thanks as always. There are a few Sicilian Victories films n August 1943 I cannot see were it states that they are Canadian films. I will check IWM and BP for August and September 1943 and Sicily as search options.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  9. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    Went looking for the Census number and found these in the “approximate” number range

    Just for interest I guess…….I’m still looking thru the War Daires as sometime units posted their Census number on vehicles before they embarked on LST’s……sometimes. Haven’t found them so far in the Aug/Sept 43 War Dairies so far


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  10. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    I researched BOTH the 11th CAR and the 14th CAR, focusing on Operation Goldflake (when their entire units were moved to NW Europe)……both units had detailed Nominal Rolls of all vehicles loaded on LST’s from Leghorn to Marseile and I found them…….these loading tables show that the Brigades vehicles were “mixed” between LST for “MAXIMUM” load carrying capacity….BUT……

    this is the strange part, both the 11th CAR and 12th CAR show the loading of medium tanks on LST’s with their census numbers…..BUT the 14th CAR ONLY SHOWS ‘light tanks’ being loaded……they do NOT show ANY medium tanks….

    I was hoping (knowing full well that because a tank in a film is shown, it “may” have been hit and destroyed or damaged BEFORE “Goldflake”….but still trying to see if I can find the tank census number in the files)…to confirm 14th CAR tank WD numbers

    But unless the 14th CAR did NOT post all its loading table to the war diaries, the 11th CAR hopefully should have….and it’s WD records don’t show any 14th CAR medium tanks

    I’m still searching…….I’ve found records of a very large DIVISION parade after they arrive in NW Europe so I’ll go thru them to see if I can find anything (like, maybe, the 14th LEFT all its tanks in Italy and were assigned NEW tanks in NW Europe)???

    AND finally, if you really would like to confirm any vehicles……your BEST BET is LAC Ottawa. Every unit of the Canadian Military had to submit “DAILY” vehicle returns, I’ve seen these for other units, listing all vehicle ON STRENGTH for that day…..and these records still existing at LAC, but you need to go thru the Unit Files to find them…..a suggestion if you really want to determine vehicle census numbers and types held by a UNIT.

    Having said all of that, I realize the the WD number will NOT give you the vehicle “name” but it would confirm if a tank or vehicle existed from a film (like you posted)….

    I’ll post up anything I find…….

    And, if anyone wants the vehicle and WD numbers for the 11th, 12th or 14th CAR transferred on Op Goldflake…..I have them downloaded, and can send them or post them for you….

    Cheers

    EDIT……I found their tanks……missed them in all the detail. War Dairies indicated their tanks were loaded on LST’s 97, 98, 99, 100 ……..NOW THE BAD NEWS……these loading tables LIST their tanks, but DO NOT give the census numbers (all the other loading tables do……but not these ones)….so Loading tables do not help in this case. Loading tables show 27 medium tanks being loaded……and 17 “Honeys” (Stewart Light tanks)

    ON ARRIVAL in Belgium, the Regiment TANKs WE was re-organized, but it does’nt say “yet” if new tanks were issued, or if just a few were needed etc…..more investigation here

    SO, this did NOT work out well for this search……but it did give me a lot of vehicle numbers and types for the 11th, 12th and 14th CAR….oh well, I’m retired, didn’t have anything else to do anyway
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
  11. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi,

    Please post them or PM them to me.
    I have checked my files and have the following:-

    11 CAR
    73 Census Numbers, 9 named with numbers, 8 named without numbers ( 81 total)
    3 Sicily, 7 Italy, 64 NWE / Holland, 7 unknown ( 81 total )

    12 CAR
    87 Census Numbers, 26 named with numbers, 11 named without numbers ( 98 total)
    9 Italy, 78 NWE / Holland, 11 unknown ( 98 total )

    14 CAR
    76 Census Numbers, 9 named with numbers, 2 named without numbers ( 78 total)
    4 Italy, 1 Sicily, 69 NWE / Holland, 4 unknown ( 78 total )

    The above all relate to Shermans only. If we can cross reference these to see what if any were transferred to NWE. I don't think I have any Stuart census numbers so anything would be appreciated.
    I am a bit dubious about the number of NWE / Holland numbers, some could be Sicily / Italy.
    Let me know and then I will return completed lists.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  12. Kevin,

    Are you certain that the mass of the Census Numbers you have are for NWE/Holland? I believe they come from here:
    Ontario Regiment Sherman profiles

    If so, it's Sicily. If not, that's a few more :D
     
  13. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Michel,

    Thanks for that link. I will cross check and add / amend accordingly. The numbers I have were sent to me yonks ago I think with the indication that they were used in NWE. This listing should prove one way or the other.
    Thanks as always.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  14. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    I’ll PM you the files. I’ve “marked” the 3 regiments tanks (11th, 12th and 14th)……and as I said, the 14th didn’t include census numbers, but the other regiments did…….and I’ll also give you the Stewarts
     
  15. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Michel,

    This did appear to be the case, so a far bit of amending to do. However there were a couple of oddities. I was missing T146617 from 12 CAR and I had T146414 CARTIER that was not on the list for either 11 CAR or the Tank Delivery Regiment but attached is an image of it on Sicily.

    Edit
    11 CAR
    That leaves me with 6 numbers in NWE / Holland, ANNETTE and CANUCK as unknown location with the rest Sicily / Italy.
    12 CAR
    20 numbers in NWE / Holland with AMBLING, ARCHER, CANADIAN, CAPITO, CAVALIER, CHAMP and COMMODORE without numbers, COMMANDO unknown, the rest Sicily / Italy.
    14 CAR
    8 numbers in NWE / Holland, remainder Sicily / Italy with ALBERTA and AMOS without numbers.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
  16. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Great thank you. Michel Sabarly has pointed me in the right direction as to the fact that the majority of census numbers I have are actually for Sicily not NWE but I have now corrected my lists where possible and will add anything else from your details. Put your email address in the PM and I will return the completed listings.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  17. 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment), from photos shot in Delft 21 May 1945 and other nearby places/times. Sqn org: 1 Sherman 75 mm (Sherman V) + 2 Sherman 105 mm (Sherman Ib) in SHQ, 4 troops each with 2 Sherman 75 mm (Sherman V) and 2 Sherman 17 pr (Vc or Ic):

    A Sqn
    SHQ
    Callsign A - AVENGER Sherman V T212587
    AA - AMI Sherman Ib
    AB - ABNER Sherman Ib T270044​
    1 Tp
    1 - ARCHER Sherman Vc T2xx974
    1C (probably) - Sherman Ic Hybrid Chrysler T269989
    (callsign unknown) - ARROW (probably), Sherman V​
    2 Tp
    2 - ALWAYS Sherman V T229250
    2A - AMBLING Sherman Ic Hybrid ALCO T2(632)72 (numbers betwen bracket unsure)
    2B - ALTER Sherman V T231679
    2C - AN... Sherman Vc​
    3 Tp
    3 - Sherman Vc AUDREY T288948
    (possibly 3A) - Sherman V AZTEC "The Gremlin Chasers"
    3C - Sherman Vc​
    4 Tp
    (4 or 4C) - ASP Sherman Vc T289xxx
    4A - ANITA Sherman V
    4B - ALAN Sherman V T231919
    (4C or 4) - ANZAC Sherman Vc​
    B Sqn
    BLASTAWAY II Sherman V​

    C Sqn
    SHQ
    C - CHIEF Sherman V T231850 or T231859?
    CA - CYCLOPS? Sherman Ib T269537?
    CB - CAVALIER Sherman Ib​
    1 Tp
    1 - Sherman Vc
    1A, 1B - Sherman V
    1C - COURAGE Sherman Vc T232429​
    2 Tp
    2, 2A - Sherman V
    2B - Sherman Vc
    2C - CANADESI Sherman Ic Hybrid Chrysler T269847​
    3 Tp
    3 - Sherman Vc
    3A - COBOURG Sherman V
    3B - COBALT Sherman V
    3C - CAPITO Sherman Ic Hybrid ALCO T268720 or T268726​
    4 Tp
    4 - COMMODORE Sherman Ic Hybrid ALCO
    4A, 4B - Sherman V
    4C - CHAMP Sherman Vc​
    Other names, unknown troop:
    CARTIER Sherman V
    CHAMPLAIN Sherman Vc
    CANADIAN Sherman Vc​
    Since its appears that the regiment kept its tank names when it came to NWE, we should be able to complete the picture with those in Italy :)

    Notes:
    - Sherman V COURAGEOUS T146425 is Italy, not NWE. I suspect tanks starting in T146xxx, T147xxx etc. are Italy and not NWE, at least not at the end of the war.
    - "The Gremlin Chasers" is not a tank name but a cartoon painted on the front of the hull side of AZTEC.
    - In your List, all "Sherman III" for the three Regts in 1 CAB should read "Sherman V"

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2023
  18. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    You probably already have this information but they received new tanks on the 20th Mar 1945

    MARCH 20, 1945


    The Three Rivers Regiment (12th CAR) is issued twenty new Shermans with 17-pounder guns. Our tank troops change to a 4- tank basis (two with 17-pdrs, two 75MMs).

    Source:
    War Chronicles 1939-1945
    Three Rivers Regiment (Tank) by
    Charles Prieur

    The 14th CAR War Diaries have their “new” WE…..but it doesn’t say if these were “new” tanks or a combination of new with old

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
  19. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Attached is an Excel spreadsheet of currently known ( to me anyway ) names and census numbers of various types of Sherman tank used by 11th ( Ontario Regiment ), 12th ( Three Rivers Regiment ) and 14th ( Calgary Regiment ) CAR in Sicily, Italy and North west Europe.

    The headers are:-

    Tank Type, Letter Type, Census Number, Name, Squadron, Call Sign, AoS, Regiment, Location, Date, Known Photo

    The census numbers in red with yellow fill are numbers listed as being transferred from Italy to NWE in Operation Goldflake on LST’s 97, 98, 99 and 100. Unfortunately the lists for the transfer do not state the Sherman type.

    The census numbers in black with yellow fill are those where a know photo exists in NWE showing the name or census number.

    Additional details courtesy Temujin ( transferred numbers, LST info ) and Michel Sabarly ( Three Rivers details, corrections to my details ).

    If anyone can add any additional census numbers, names or match names to numbers please let me know.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

    Chris C likes this.
  20. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    I just “remembered” (I’m old, sometimes I forget things I’ve saved)……that I have lists of Census Numbers for the 1st Cdn Armoured Brigade Units on loading for the Med in Jun 1943. Here’s are those census numbers

    These have the 11th, 12th and 14th CAR PLUS 1st Armoured Delivery Regiments holdings and tanks assigned to 1st CAB HQ


    [​IMG]


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    4jonboy likes this.

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