My father was a Gunner on S.S. ORION

Are the logbooks still available, at the NA perhaps?

 

TNA series BT380, BT381 Search via ships Official number and BT387 Search alphabeticaly by ships name.
TNA catalogue referes to the documents in BT380 and BT381 as follows

Registry of Shipping and Seamen: War of 1939-1945; Coast Trade Official Log Books and Crew Agreements .

Description:


This series contains the log books and crew lists of ships employed upon the coasts of the United Kingdom and the Irish Free State during World War II

Coast Trade and Coasts is a misleading description and in fact the series contain logbooks and crew agreements for all British Registered vessels

BT387

Registry of Shipping and Seamen: War of 1939-1945; Log Books and Crew Agreements of Allied Foreign Ships Requisitioned or Chartered by HMG. These records provide details of UK Merchant Seamen who served on allied ships during the Second World War.

The records in this series are far from complete.

As already stated logbooks give the most accurate movement details. Obviously if the ship was lost so were her logbook movements.

regards
Roger

 

I can’t believe it is over five years since I posted my first and last post with the opening line “My father was a gunner on S.S. ORION”. Many thanks to all of you who took the time to respond. Since 2009 I have continued with my research and while it is true as many of you have said, there is very little out there relating to Maritime R.A. D.E.M.S. Gunners and the WS(Winston Specials) Convoys, I have been able to find a fair amount of background information. I have managed to write an account of my dad’s first twelve months of service based around the diary he kept of his first voyage (Convoy WS7) which takes me up to August 1941. Orion returned to UK waters on 26th July 1941, having been routed via Trinidad and Halifax, Nova Scotia. I have to assume dad disembarked at Avonmouth. His Soldiers Service and Pay book shows he had seven days privilege leave, which he used to return to Cheshire to get married on the 9th August 1941. The Pay Book and Record of Service Papers are not easy to understand and don’t provide much detail of where he was stationed so I don’t know with any surety where he went following those seven days leave. His record of leave shown in the Service and Pay Book suggests that he remained in the UK from August 1941 until January 1944 when according to an entry in his Record of Service Papers he “embarked with Drafts RIPLB” 23.1.45 and “Disembarked Bombay” 24.2.1945. I assume he sailed with Orion(Convoy KMF39) There is no record of when he arrived back in UK or if he sailed again with Orion as part of Convoy KMF43 which left UK 17.4.45.

I recently came across www.thornburyroots.co.uk and read an article by a Adrian Rose of Thornbury entitled An Introduction to the Maritime Formations of the Royal Artillery Britain's Trade and Merchant Navy. The article provides a very good account of how the DEMS, Maritime AA and Maritime RA came about and there roll during WW2. Reading the article did go some way to answering the question of where my dad was after his marriage in August 1941. I didn’t know that following the formation in March 1943 of the six Maritime RA Regiments each was given responsibility for a shipping area. Dad was in 2nd Maritime AA Bty which became 2nd Regiment Maritime RA whose responsibility was the Firth of Forth, Scotland. Their HQ appears to have been in or near to Leslie a small town north east of Dunfirmline on the north side of the Forth. Now all this goes a long way to explain why my mum moved to Portobello, Edinburgh in May 1943 and why I was born there in 1946, but it doesn’t explain what my dad was doing and where he was doing it. I wish I had asked more questions when I was growing up.

I have been to TNA at Kew and searched the Log books for S.S. Orion but have not found my dad’s name amongst the Crew Lists for any of the journeys she made – even the one I know my dad was on.
E.mails to the the FIREPOWER Museum, Woolwich have not provided me with any more answers. The librarian who replied was very helpful and did provide me with some facts I was unaware of but nothing specific to my enquiry. The following is an extract from his reply, which may be useful to others “Unfortunately we are not permitted to hold personal service records in the Royal Artillery library or archives. The papers you have obtained from APC Glasgow are all the information the military record on your father, the ships he posted to where recorded separately in a Merchant Navy book he carried on his person and was his responsibility to maintain and keep up to date when joining and leaving the vessels. At the end of the War these books were not required by the military, many demobilised soldiers kept them as souvenirs, other posted them back to the Register of Shipping and Seaman and the occasional soldier sent it to his regimental office for placing in his permanent file. As Glasgow have not provided you with a photocopy, this means they don’t have it, and it hasn’t been placed in our collection, the only hope is he forwarded it to the Register of Shipping and Seamen”
I have not yet found an address for the Register of Shipping and Seamen – and Google hasn’t been much help!! or am I having a senior moment and should be going back to TNA?

I better stop rambling so will end with the usual request that if anyone out there has any thought as to where the information I am looking for could be found I would appreciate any help. I have attached a couple of pages from my dads Record of Service Papers, can anyone shed light on what the various
abbreviations and references in column A of Scan 1 mean. Can anyone explain the Military History Sheet – Service at Home and Abroad.
Regards
DCW

 

Hello DCW,

[SIZE=10.5pt]I am afraid the above piece about the Merchant Navy book is completely incorrect. The reason that Maritime RA DEMS gunners are difficult to research is mainly due to the fact that his army records don't record his Merchant Navy ships. This was recorded on a Maritime Card, most have not survived. Those that do, and I have seen a few, give a breakdown of all seagoing ships the gunner served in. I presume if you did not receive the card with his service records that it probably has not survived.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you wish to give your dad's full name date and place of birth?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]the address for the RSS in Cardiff is as follows - I give for information only as I can assure you they will not advise you about DEMS gunners. Merchant Navy books were held by merchant seamen only. When you were looking through ORION's Crew Agreements did you see other gunners listed as deck hands or Armed Forces? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The Registry of Shipping[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]MCA Cardiff[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Anchor Court[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Ocean Way[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Cardiff[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]CF24 5JW[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]T +44 (0)29 20 448800[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]F +44 (0)29 20 448820[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]E rss@mcga.gov.uk [/SIZE]

Regards
Hugh

 

Hello Hugh
Thank you for your reply. I understand what you are saying regards the difference between the Merchant Navy Book and the Maritime Card. As I read your message I recalled reading about the Maritime Card before – it may have been on the now closed Mercantile Marine web site. I certainly never received one with my dad’s Service papers and it was not amongst the stuff he kept after the war. Obviously no point in contacting RSS.
I have visited TNA twice and searched the SS Orion Log Books for the years 1941 through to 1945 with out finding my dad’s name amongst the crew lists, I have no recollection of seeing any reference to gunners either. Is it possible names of Army DEMS gunners were on a separate list and were deposited elsewhere?
The story of my dad’s war will have to be concluded without to much detail. I do have some information amongst his Service Papers and memorabilia, which I can use to provide some interest without making too many assumptions. The attached items Scan a. b. & c.do suggest my dad was in India during 1945.
Dad’s name was Charles John Windsor, born 31/12/1910. Allostock, Cheshire.
Army No. 3717636, Enlisted 12/09/1940, Released 09/12/1945

Regards
David Windsor

 

That would have been in September 41?

Can the picture be reposed?

All the best

Andreas

 

Hello DCW,

Yes, you possible did glean some of that information from the Mercantile Marine site. It was good while we had it available even if I do say so myself , sadly no longer available.
Regarding the DEMS gunners on the Crew Agreement, they would be noted in the same pages as the rest of the crew but probably near the end pages. They too had to sign on and off the Articles of Agreement just like the seamen. The easy way to distinguish them from the other members of the crew is that they were called Deck Hands or AF (armed forces). On the ORION there would have been quite a few of them so I am quite surprised you don't seem to have spotted any of them. So you should really think about this again if you have the opportunity to visit Kew. Remember the gunners did sign on and off so make sure you are looking at the period of the Agreement that you are certain he sailed.

It is entirely possible that he was travelling on this draft as an ordinary soldier, a passenger en-route to another posting, ie not part of the DEMS gunners assigned to the ship and therefore would not be on the Crew Agreement.

I will keep an eye out using the information given for anything that comes up.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi DCW

I too am researching my dad's war experiences as a MRA Gunner. I'm new to this site but have gained a lot of info over the last year or two from Ships Nostalgia site www.shipsnostalgia.com where Hugh MacLean has been of great assistance.

A wee tip when looking at Crew Lists/Crew Agreements:- the gunners are listed as Deck Hands whether they are RN gunners or MRA gunners but you can distinguish between then by looking at the rates of pay on right hand page. The MRA gunners were paid 1/- per month by the shipping company and the RN gunners were paid 3/6 per week ! (I don't know was negotiating on behalf of the MRA but I wouldn't want them as my union rep!!)

Good luck with your research.

Chris Anderson

 

Managed to spend a day at TNA recently, looking through ADM and WO files containing D.E.M.S, Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships, Maritime Royal Artillery, Maritime Anti Aircraft Regiment and similar in their titles. Found a lot of information to help with my research into the formation of D.E.M.S. and the Maritime Royal Artillery and its roll in providing D.E.M.S. Gunners. Unfortunately ran out of time to get through everything so another visit is called for!!! Although the afore mentioned was my prime reason for the visit I did look at BT381/1618, SS Orion, No 164493 again -- still no sign of my dad’s name on the Crew List, in fact as far as I could see there were no Deck Hands or AF listed. I have attached a picture of the file cover of the document I was looking at – am I looking in the right place? As mentioned before I was always told he sailed on Orion and have no reason to doubt it, his diary about his first voyage matches the movement card and other records of her sailing with Convoy WS7 ( Departed Liverpool 23rd March 41 – Disembarked Avonmouth 29/30th July 41).
Have contacted Historical Disclosures, Kentigern House Glasgow again in the hope they had overlooked the Maritime Card when I got his Service Papers – no such luck so it looks likely they didn’t survive.
The search continues.
Have attached three press cuttings from 1937 & 39, which may be of interest to someone out there.

Regards
David Windsor

 

Forgot to press the attach button!!

 

Third time lucky!

 

Just realised I forgot this one!

 

Hello David,
That is the correct document but the fact that you cannot find any military personnel listed in the details of the crew makes me think you must be missing a page(s). I don't suppose you copied the pages listing the crew, if so I would like to have a look? I may be able to advise.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hello Hugh

No unfortunately I didn't copy the crew list pages, hopefully going to get to TNA again next month so will do so then.

Regards
David W

 

Just received my dads WW2 medals from MOD Medal Office -- 1939-45 Star, Defence Medal, War Medal 1939-45. Like many servicemen returning to civvy street at the end of the war dad just wanted to forget and put behind him the previous five years (in his case four years)and get on with the rest of his life. He never applied for his medals and so I am pleased I have been able to do so for purely sentimental reasons plus an element of pride. I hope to use them to illustrate to my grandchildren as they grow up, the sacrifices made by their great grandparents generation.

David W.

 

i see this topic has been going for a while. I am new to this site, but researching my father who served extensively on Orion throughout the war. He also served on Oronsay, Orontes and Otranto.
Keen to contact anyone who has relatives to links to these ships and personal

 

Neil Harris wrote:-
"Hello David
I read with interest some searching you did several years ago at TNA relating to crew list searches.
My father served for several years inc WW2 on Orion and Oronsay. I have traced his movements through the war. I am interested in your searching on crew lists, whether there was great value in spending the effort to review the documents.
Some ships records I have found tend to by quite limited in content/detail
Appreciate your view
Neil
Neil Harris, Dec 10, 2020 "

Hello Neil
Decided to copy & paste your message here to keep the flow going.
First of all my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

It is difficult to say whether there is any value in spending time and effort searching crew lists in ships logs (BT381/1618, SS Orion, No 164493). If like me you don't find what you are looking for then it could be argued it is a waste of time on the other hand you don't know unless you do. I'm assuming your father served in the Merchant Navy so I would think there is a very good chance of you finding him on the crew lists for each of the ships on which he sailed.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards
David W

 

I think it is important that you understand the contents of a ship's official logbook before you go diving into them especially if you are using a researcher and not doing it yourself.
A ship's logbook contains entries relating to a whole year of voyages. The narrative contains entries relating to the crew and discipline etc also any notable events and is signed by the Master. The logbook also contains the crew agreements which will tell you when a seaman joins the ship, which port, when he signs off and which port, his character, last place of abode etc.
There are also parts of the logbook that will have no relevance to you. Remember that the logbook covers a whole year so if using a researcher make sure he knows exactly what you want copied and the date range otherwise you will probably be disappointed as well as out of pocket.
Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks Hugh,
I think that will help Neil more than my response to his question.

I haven't been back to TNA since March 2015 so I'm still looking for answers to many of the same old questions I was back then. However a few months ago while researching on the Ancestry web site I came across my dad's Tracer Card, why I hadn't found it before I don't know. It doesn't provide much more information than I have already except for the entry " Emb for Canada (Pool) 18/09/41". This was completely new to me but as usual it raises more questions than it provides answers. Which ship was he on? It can't have been SS Orion as she was in the South Atlantic as part of convoy WS10 having an auto cation with HMS Revenge. What was his roll, was he part of a convoy if so which one, was this a one off or did he make more than one crossing?
Have you any thoughts as to where I can begin to answer these questions.

Regards and best wishes for 2021.
David W

 

Hello David,
These record hunts are a marathon not a sprint as you are finding out.
Just to go back over some ground as it has been a while. The key to your father's service as a D.E.M.S. gunner lies in his maritime card which we thought had not survived if not presented with his military records. Have a look at my thread here: Royal Artillery Maritime Regiment - Maritime Cards and you may wish to contact the MoD again.
On 18.9.1941, he would have embarked on a passenger ship which may have berthed at New York so have you checked Ancestry for arrivals. Crew manifests were deposited by regulation and that would include DEMS. I don't have access I am afraid. He would be sailing to join the Canada Merchant Navy Pool prior to joining a ship for DEMS duty. The tracer card doesn't give much away so the maritime card is what you need.
Regards
Hugh