Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

6 Inch Guns Mark XIII, Mark XVI, Mark XXI

These three weapons are all fairly similar in origin, design, and history, so I'm lumping them together. As the Great War loomed, British yards were building a number of dreadnoughts for Turkey and Chile. When the war broke out in August 1914 these vessels were seized by the RN, and so their guns entered the British inventory. The 6-inch guns of the Sultan Osman/HMS Agincourt became the Mark XIII, the 6-inch of the Reshadieh/HMS Erin became the Mark XVI, and the 6 Inch of the Almirante Latorre class (HMS Canada, HMS Eagle) were designated Mark XVII. The Chileans had also ordered a number of coastal guns, minor variants of the Mark XVII, and these were named Mark XXI and given to the British Army. The XIII, XVI, and XXI were all 50 caliber guns firing 100 lb. shells; the Mark XIII and Mark XXI were Armstrong-Elswick designs, while the XVI was a Vickers design. All three were still in stock in 1939, so into coastal use they went, and the Mark XIII was also used to re-arm some gunboats. I can't find any images of the XVI at all, and the only good picture I can find of the XIII shows it in use aboard HMS Ladybird, which played a great part in the defense of Tobruk. Some Mark XXIs went to New Zealand, and an attached photo shows one of the Kiwi examples. Quoted ranges (shipboard) for the XIII and XVI are 13,475 yards at 15 degrees and 14,640 yards at 15 respectively. Maximum quoted range for the Mark XVII, the XXI's very close shipboard relative, is 16,190 yards at 20 degrees.

 

The Ten-Division Plan

I have recently been thumbing through two official history volumes, North American Supply (H. Duncan Hall) and Studies of Overseas Supply (Hall and C.G. Wrigley). Anyone who wants to study British armament in WWII should read these volumes, which are endlessly illuminating. I could go on and on about them, but I confess that I was somewhat disappointed in what was not covered in them. There is no discussion of the acquisition of small arms from Spain, Argentina, Belgium, Bolivia, and Shanghai. The 1940 scramble for handguns in the New York gun market is not mentioned. Most annoyingly and inexplicably, there is no mention of the planned armaments collaborations with the French, which were clearly quite important even if the plug was pulled on them in 1940. On the plus side, North American Supply does discuss another important project, a 1940 plan to equip ten divisions of the British Army entirely with American weapons. This was an expedient, accepted by the British government because the US authorities would not allow many British types to be manufactured here because they might take up space needed for our own rearmament program. The WO seems to have grudgingly agreed that some American weapons could be accepted under this plan as approximate equivalents to British types, those specifically mentioned being the 37mm M3 antitank gun (=2-pdr), the 37mm M1A1 light AA gun (=Bofors), the 105mm M2 howitzer (=25-pdr), the 60mm M2 and 81mm M1 mortars (= 2-inch and 3-inch), and the ".30 rifle." (The last is not specified by type; might be the M1, but the M1903 Springfield was put back in production by Remington and there was also a plan to produce a .303 version of the M1903.) Nothing came of the plan in the end.

 

Salvage on an Industrial Scale: the Captured Ordnance Depot, Egypt

I am only just now appreciating just how extensive the salvaging and reconditioning of captured enemy equipment became. By early 1943, if not earlier, the RAOC had an entire depot in Egypt dedicated to this work. This depot--a factory, really--is variously referred to as the Captured Ordnance Depot, Captured Stores Depot, and Captured Weapons Depot, the first being the most common. It may have been operated by 6th AOD and may have been located at or near Alexandria, but I'm not certain of either statement. In March 1943 No. 1 Army Film Unit took a series of photos of the depot's operations. Finding these photos in the IWM online collection is not easy, because that collection has a terrible indexing system. Captured artillery arrived by rail, was assembled in a large open-air park, and then moved into a receiving and evaluation area where decisions were made on whether the pieces were worth repairing or not. Weapons not found worth repairing were used for parts (or, maybe, for scrap?) A quick survey of the photos shows that the depot handled and repaired many Axis types, including:

German: 170mm K18, 150mm FH18, 105mm FH18, 75mm IG 18, 50mm Pak 38, 155mm GPF-T (French captures), 81mm GW34, 7.92mm Kar 98K, 20mm Flak
Italian: 100mm howitzers, 75mm and 76.5mm field guns, 65mm infantry gun, 20mm Breda AA, 47mm Breda anti-tank gun, 81mm M31 mortar, 20mm Solothurn anti-tank rifle, 12.7mm Breda-Safat MG, 6.5mm Breda M30 MG, 6.5mm Fiat M35 MG, 6.5mm Carcano series, 6.5mm Vetterli-Vitali rifle

Etc., etc. etc. Much of the labor at the depot was Egyptian, and one photo caption states that they were routinely searched when they left work--a wise precaution in view of the political situation.

One thing the photo captions did not say was what was done with the weapons once they had been repaired. Many of the types I listed above are confirmed in British field use (Italian 75mm, 47mm, and 20mm guns, 50mm Pak 38) but many aren't. By March, 1943, the British Army had passed the equipment crisis and so salvaged weapons were no longer so desperately needed by the units in the field. I have yet to find any record of British forces using such weapons as the 105mm FH18, to take just one example. What, then, was done with such weapons after they were repaired? It is quite possible that some were allotted to training establishments to familiarize personnel with enemy weapons. Small arms like the Kar98K, the Carcano, and the Italian MGs could be made available to SOE for dropping to resistance movements. Perhaps some weapons were given to Allied forces or friendly neutrals (the Free French in Syria? the Turks?) All of that is only semi-informed guesswork. Did the RAOC produce an official history? The answers are hiding somewhere.

 

Breda 20mm guns are shown as part of the official British Order of Battle for the Middle East.

I have never seen any mention of Beretta pistols being used. I would have thought they would have been ideal for SOE at this stage of the war!

Regards

AlanD

 

Perhaps this material repaied and restored found its way to new users. Some might still be in action.

 

Sheldrake,

There is a website on the weapons used in the Syrian Civil War which has this clip and others. Been a good time since I visited, so cannot recall exact name. Ah, it may be: Oryx Blog There is another website, so I may be confused.

 

If memory serves, Beretta M34/35 autos were reportedly pretty popular among Allied personnel in the Med. I can't summon up a reference at the moment, but will look. Beretta M38A SMGs were certainly used by British troops.

 

For God's Sake, Don't Shoot That! The Vetterli-Vitali M1870/87/15

There is a lot more to say about the Captured Ordnance Depot (COD), but before I get to the really usable stuff the depot processed I must mention this thing. When it appeared in 1870, the Italian Vetterli-Vitali 10mm rifle was a fairish weapon, a black-powder single shot with what was for the time an unusually strong bolt action. In 1887, the Italians upgraded the weapon to a repeater, the M1870/87. In 1914 war were declared, and by 1915 Italy was in it. In that same year, Italian engineers figured out a way to sort-of upgrade the M1870/87 to only just handle the smokeless 6.5mm Carcano cartridge. The resulting conversion, the M1870/87/15, was issued to Italian service and second-line troops in the Great War and plenty were still around in 1940. Many had been given away to native auxiliaries and friendly [sic] tribesmen in Libya and East Africa and of course many fell into British hands. The 1915 conversion was done pretty near the margin of safety of the Vetterli-Vitali bolt, and by 1940 some of these guns had been around for nearly 70 years and had seen very hard service, often in rough hands and insalubrious climates. If I had been an RAOC officer in 1941 confronted with them I would have sent them straight to the scrap heap as a safety precaution. And yet here is an Egyptian kid laborer at the COD toting half a dozen 70/87/15s. I hope he was taking them to be dumped, but did the British actually save and re-use or try to re-use these booby traps? If anyone knows, let me know. I do know that some older Vetterli-Vitali M70/87s were smuggled into Ulster by the UVF just before the Great War, were any of those still kicking around? Oh, and in case anyone thinks I am exaggerating about the 70/87/15, see this fascinating video by Othais and Mae:

 

Oh No, They Really Did

Well, the IWM just answered a question I had in the previous post. The photo attached here shows an M70/87/15 under repair at the COD with others in the foreground awaiting inspection.

 

I wouldn't pull the trigger on one of those. I can't find the chamber pressure for the original
10.4 x 47mm R black powder round but I doubt it exceeded 20,000 PSI. The 6.5 Carcano was over 40,000. Kind of like using modern shells in a Damascus barreled shotgun.

 

Check the video, it goes into detail about the Italian adaptation. I believe a metal sleeve was involved and it did sort of work, but I still wouldn't want to try it. Othais and Mae fired one and lived but the stock didn't hold up very well. [Oh, yes, and a locking lug cracked too.]

 

The British did place an order in early 1940 for Beretta SMG's, but this was canceled, not surprisingly.

When you say that the British used them are you refreshing to captured examples?

Regards

Alan

 

Yes, captured examples of the M38 were indeed used. One of the photos below shows one in use by troops of 50th Division in Sicily. If you look closely at the other photo of 51st Division troops aboard a Valentine you can see that one of the men on the front of the tank has a Beretta M38.

 

20mm Breda mounted on an MTB in the Mediterranean.

WITH THE MTB'S ON PATROL IN THE MEDITERRANEAN. MARCH 1943.

 

Breda again, caption has story.

 

Better picture of M1916 Berthier.

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?extid=SEO----&v=890758175061804

 

The 20mm Breda LAA

I had been intending eventually to do some posts about the various Italian artillery pieces in British use, and the appearance of the 20mm Breda here has forced my hand. Suffice it to say that the 20mm Breda (Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/65 modello 35 (Breda), also known as Breda Model 35) was one of the better Italian artillery weapons in 1940, and one of the few really modern pieces in Italian service. Large numbers were captured in COMPASS and other operations and since British forces were in need of light AA weapons they were very welcome and became one of the most widely used captured weapons. There are many pictures of them in British hands. The Australians and 4th AA Bde made extensive use of the 20mm Breda in Tobruk and it was often installed on Marmon-Herrrington armored cars in place of the normal MG armament. Feed was a 12-round strip, rate of fire was 240 rounds per minute with a vertical range of 1500 meters (4,900 feet).

 

More seriously...photographic evidence exists of the Lebel M86/93 and the Berthier M1916 rifles in Home Guard service. Four other Berthier types were also used by the French in some numbers in 1940. Two of these were rifles, the M07/15 (8mm Lebel cartridge, three-round Mannlicher type clip) and the M07/15 M34 (M07/15 shortened and adapted to the 7.5mm French M29 cartridge, five round Mauser type clip). There were two Berthier carbines as well, the older M92 (8mm, three-round clip) and the M92 T16, which was the M92 altered to take a five-round Mannlicher clip. The 92 T16 is the one Raquel is holding. (Oh, lucky carbine, to be held by Raquel.) It was used in very large numbers in WWII and may have been the best of the 8mm Berthiers. It was still in service with the Gendarmerie in the 1970s. I have seen no direct evidence that any of these other Berthier types were used by British forces, and if anyone has such evidence I'd love to see it.

 

IMFDB says they were used in "100 Rifles". I don't remember them but have only seen it once or twice.
Also says there were M1s

100 Rifles - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games