Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

The US version of the French 75mm made it into British and Commonwealth service. The main form was the M1897A4 on the M3 75mm GMC half track. As fire support they were successful and well liked. There is evidence that when stocks ran low, field expedient versions based on the IH half tracks more common in Brit./Comm. service were used. I'd love to know more on the these - especially whether the guns were lifted from the old vehicles or drawn from replacement LL stock. Here's a Canadian example in Holland, note this is not an original GMC on a White h/t.

 

Really? I have zoomed the picture and I don't see it.

 

Yes, those things continue to be a mystery. From what I read on another site (which I can't find now, damn it) the adaptations were carried out on M14 HT's, which we know the Canadians had quite a few of. The guns, as you say, are the core of the mystery. The US made about 2200 M3s and M3A1 GMCs, but they were rapidly phased out as TDs after the Tunisian campaign. Reportedly over 1,300 of the remaining stock were stripped of their guns to become standard M3 HTs. This suggests that there may have been a surplus of guns. Alternatively, maybe the Canadians simply took guns from worn-out M3 SPs and installed them on M14s in better mechanical condition. Finally, by 1943-44 the US can have had little use for the remaining M1897A4 field guns since the M2 howitzer was in abundant supply, so maybe the Canadians got hold of some. Is a puzzlement, as the King of Siam said.

 

perhaps of help:
RCDs & M3 75mm GMC? - MLU FORUM

 

Photographs show both M14s and M5/M9 half track versions were used. The previous photo I linked has the mine racks of the latter. The M14 had no rear door which doesn't seem to have been a problem. (N.b. not my photos, posted for study only).

I am aware of the MLU information, thanks, and have asked questions there. I have extensively researched US half tracks in Brit./Comm. service and this is a real head scratcher.

 

I was referring to to second part of the post I quoted i.e. the vast collection weapons fitted. I have a very old 1970s book about British carrier's that includes a Universal Carrier with a Solothurn cannon.

 

The British received 802 examples of the 75mm M1A1 howitzer from the U.S., and the Canadians got another 24. Some went to the Australians, either as part of the British order or via theater transfer in the SWPA. Originally developed as a mountain gun, the M1A1 could be broken down into six pack loads. Maximum range with the 14.6 lb. HE shell was 9,489 yards. There was also a HEAT round for the M1A1, supposedly capable of penetrating 93mm of armor. The carriage was available either with the original wooden wheels or with pneumatic tires for motor traction. In British service the M1A1 is most famous as the armament of the RA airlanding light regiments which served with 1st and 6th Airborne. It was also used in other theaters and roles. Mountain guns were of course well suited to Italian conditions, and 85th Light Field Regiment used the M1A1 in Italy. The 31st Light AA Regiment was re-equipped with the M1A1 and joined Vis Force in Yugoslavia, where it supported the partisans and trained partisan gunners on the weapons. The 2nd Australian Mountain Battery used the M1A1 on the Huon Peninsula in New Guinea and 2/8th Field Regiment used them on Borneo in Operation OBOE. Finally, the Canadian-American 1st Special Service Force had a battery of T30 HMCs, these being M1A1 howitzers on half-track chassis.

 

Not sure if this has appeared before. Yes, once more from Twitter, three tweets by @Peter_S_Bailey. First the image.

THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45


Peter's text:

Available on: https://twitter.com/Peter_S_Bailey/status/1624535659380723718/photo/1

The text for above:

Then a second document image below; which he explains:

Available via: https://twitter.com/Peter_S_Bailey/status/1624902559348432897/photo/1

 

I presume your source was Hogg via Clarke – this is incorrect.

9 guns were sent to augment the defences of Pointe Noire and Duala in French West Africa in late 1940; 6 more were retained by the Admiralty against future French requirements and 27 were made available to the War Office in early 1941. This leaves only 2 of the nominal 44 guns unaccounted for.

These were M1910, which were long-barrelled, low-angle weapons that had been designed specifically for use in casemates. The French also subsequently adopted them for coast defence purposes and early-on considered them for other roles afloat but I’m not sure if this was ever implemented.

The Admiralty had loaned large numbers of weapons to the War Office in 1940 and was keen to have as many 4” and 4.7” returned as possible for DEMS use in 1941. The intention had been to use the French guns to replace some of these existing batteries but this proved impractical and the batteries required significant modification. Ultimately the War Office installed seven 2-gun batteries: five in the West Country (Sidmouth, Dawlish, Par, Padstow and Hayle); one at Port Talbot and the one at Whitehaven illustrated above – these were apparently completed Mar/Apr 1942. The limiting factor was evidently the lack of ammunition rather than the alleged state of the weapons – the M1910 shells were not interchangeable with the later models.

Hogg’s laundry list is perplexing - his passage reads:

At about the same time [June 1941], another offer was of twenty-seven French 138mm guns removed from the French warships Courbet and Paris. These were said to be the 1910 model, but it turned out that they were a mixture of 1910, 1918, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1927 and 1929 models, none of which was exactly the same. They were provisionally allocated the nomenclature ‘Ordnance QF 138mm Mk 6 or Mk 7’ depending upon the original model, an odd selection since there never was a Mk 1 to 5. In February 1942, the director of Artillery reported that he had had the guns carefully examined at Hilsea Ordnance Depot; all were so worn as to be at the end of their useful life, one so badly that no trace of rifling remained in the bore. The offer, therefore, was declined.
Ian V. Hogg – British & American Artillery of World War 2 (1978), p.194​

I can’t find any reference to 1918, 1924 or 1925 models and wonder if there had been some conflation between model and manufacturing years. These are the ones that I have found:

M1891 138.6mm/45: Removed from scrapped warships and mounted in auxiliaries.

M1893 138.6mm/45: Removed from scrapped warships and mounted in auxiliaries.

M1910 138.6mm/55: Single mountings in the Bretagne and Courbet battleship classes.

M1923 138.6mm/40: Single mountings in the Vauban and Guépard destroyer classes.

M1927 138.6mm/40: Single mountings in the Aigle and Cassard destroyer classes, the Bougainville class of colonial sloops and in the cruiser minelayer La Tour d’Auvergne (ex-Pluto).

M1929 138.6mm/50: Single mountings in Le Fantasque class.

M1934 138.6mm/50: Twin mountings in the Mogador and Volta classes.​

The Admiralty did provide the War Office with a ‘report on inspection of 138 mm. French Naval guns at PORTSMOUTH’ in January 1941 but I haven’t been able to trace a copy. What Hogg’s sources were is unclear, as is whether the years that he cited came from the February 1942 document or another source. The Admiralty would doubtlessly have accumulated weapons from a range of vessels seized during CATAPULT and subsequently, so this Hilsea document may be addressing these.

An account of these batteries was published in Warship 2013, p.168.

 

Thanks for that update. Yes, Clarke was the authority I was relying on. Oh, and if you turn up anything new on French small arms in British hands let me know.

 

An Anglo-Persian Mauser?

Here is an ordnance oddity. Several Persian Mauser Vz 98/29 rifles have popped up for sale recently on American gun sites. In addition to the usual markings in Farsi, these rifles also have numbers on the left of the butt and the initials I.S.A. The initials reportedly stand for "Inspector [of] Small Arms" and the numbers are rack numbers. These markings supposedly indicate use by a British police force of some sort during the WWII occupation of Persia. It is also alleged that these rifles, or some of them, were stored postwar in what later became Pakistan. I have no idea if all this is true or not, but let me know if you know. Here are some pictures of the rifles and their markings.

 

TTH,

I am very doubtful there was a British police force in Persia during WW2. The USA reformed the Persian gendarmerie, known today due to Schwarzkopf family link. See a tiny mention in: Persian Corridor - Wikipedia

The obvious place for a British police force would be the oilfields etc near Abadan, a British-Indian military presence was in place. The main route to the USSR was from the Gulf ports northwards, a mission shared with the USA. Another place for a British police would be the rebuilding of the railway linking Quetta and Zahedan in the east, a desolate, sparsely populated place prone to banditry. That could explain the storage in Pakistani depots.

I will ask a contact who knows more about the 'Eastern Corridor'. Incommunicado till mid-may 2023 alas.

Curiously these rifles appear in: Mauser Rifle Series - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

On a "gun nut" site there are plenty of threads, after looking a a few no clues were found, except most were imported from Brno before 1939. Curiously some have arrived in the USA via Iraq. See: Search results for query: persian 98/29

 

Persian Mauser/Vz24 background information
Persian Mauser

 

The figures of 395 M1917 and 500 M1897 that you generally see are the War Department’s indicative numbers given to Henry Morgenthau in early June. The actual numbers delivered were a little different. 386 M1917 were delivered (310 to Britain and 76 to Canada) and 512 M1897 (508 to Britain and 4 to Canada).

The first 48 M1917 arrived in Liverpool 23 Jun 40 aboard Eastern Prince – these were the only 75mm Britain was originally planned to receive, but of course the armistice had been signed the previous day, so the remainder were redirected. Many of the carriages, limbers and caissons supplied were indeed the horse drawn versions but Martin-Parry adaptor kits had been ordered too and the equipments were progressively pneumatised as these became available from August 1940.

The Chiefs of Staff authorised the release of 24 75mm guns for Greece in November 1940 and these were sent via the Mediterranean as part of operation EXCESS – 18 arrived Piraeus 12 Jan 41 – 6 were lost when the delayed Northern Prince was sunk 3 Apr 41. (10 Vickers ‘Dutchmen’ light tanks, taken from training units, were also safely delivered by EXCESS, and much else besides).

ASSISTANCE TO GREECE. Report. | The National Archives

A further 26 were despatched 4 Mar 41 aboard Clan Colquhoun. Sailing in OB 294, she eluded Scharnhorst and Gneisenau after the convoy was dispersed 9 Mar 41. My guess is that these guns were unloaded in Suez (she had arrived 27 Apr and left for Port Sudan 26 May). UK Movement Control Ship Registers?

I’m not aware of any further 75mm shipments for Greece from the UK but evidently more were sent to the Middle East. The following extract comes from a summary of equipment in the Middle East as at 4 Nov 41 that I found online - credit Michael Kenny, I think.
While I suspect these were M1917, I have no hard evidence. Actually M1916, ex-USA - see #603 below.

General Headquarters (GHQ): Brigadier Royal Artillery (BRA) | The National Archives

 

Back to TTH's Post 591 on An Anglo-Persian Mauser. My academic contact could not help, though they provided an in-depth account of the Persian Gendarmerie, which has nowt on Mausers. See: Welcome to Encyclopaedia Iranica

Clearly there was no British police force in Persia in WW2. Given the UK had a relatively large number of consulates across Perisa then (which ended in 1947) and the threat of banditry, rebellion etc it is likely that there was locally recruited guard force for the consulates. When India and Pakistan took responsibility for many of the consulates and then reduced their number, it would make sense for the rifles to return to Pakistan in particular.

 

Thanks for following up. I suspect that what you really had was some sort of Indian Army unit which was given captured Persian equipment. In 1940-42 standard small arms of all sorts were in short supply in India and lots of odd stuff was issued for training, guard, and irregular use. Rifles included captured Carcanos, Austrian 88/90 and 95 Mannlichers, also captured from the Italians, and even old Sniders.

 

TTH,

The other option is that the BP controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company had a security force, recruited locally most likely, or used non-Persian groups, such as Iraqi Kurds or Assyrians (who had a tradition of joining British-officered security forces as "'Levies"). The security force used Mausers, which appear to have been in wide circulation. By 1945 they could have been re-equipped with 303 rifles instead.

The snag is that in my research into the Abadan Crisis in 1946 I have not seen any mention of such a security force.

 

I did a quick search of newspapers.com between 1918 and 1952 and this did throw up a handful of maddeningly non-specific references to an Anglo-Persian Oil police force of some kind.

 

I too have found little, in the past and tonight. There is a good overview in: http://www.rasmuselling.com/wp-cont...r_RasmusChristianElling_AmsterdamJune2013.pdf

Then I found a 2011 'Tribune' newspaper story from 2011, which has this and my bold:

There is a chapter in a book on the development of Abadan on policing / security: '3.2.3 Policing the Oil Town: From the Arab Guard to the Security Department' and it starts with:[QUOTE... the Anglo-Persian Oil Company created a system of policing to protect the Refinery premises, suppress riots, handle petty crimes, and control the workforce.[/QUOTE]

They became known as the Refinery Police, operating beyond the company's territory when needed, and after Iran asserted territorial control of the province in 1924:

See: http://archives.njit.edu/vol01/etd/2020s/2020/njit-etd2020-014/njit-etd2020-014.pdf

 

A curious tale, though a little off target / theme: 'The Robber Came with a Canadian Army Machine Pistol'. See: "The Robber Came with a Canadian Army Machine Pistol"