Operation Crusader

Andreas/ JonS
What a fuss about a mistake -

Tried to correct this late last night but don't know what went wrong- first error was to write Battalion and NOT Brigade - then many or most ( at one time before D Day)
Armoured regiments had FOUR squadrons as well as a four tank HQ ergo 4x4 Troops= 16 firefly's per regiment ( battalion) PLUS another two regiments( battalions ) per brigade = 16 x 3= 48 per BRIGADE.....three British Armoured Divisions = very close to 150 PLUS the 4th Canadian and Polish Armoured's and later 5th Canadian Armoured
= to one hell of a lot of Firefly's - with assorted 17 pounders and 77mm's and assorted ammo..which saw off a great many Panthers and Tigers !

And JonS -
If and when you get to my age - you might make the odd error - but I probably won't be around to sarcastically correct you - so ....

Andreas
since you are apparently writing books on the Desert war and particularly the Crusader battles - you really should try to avoid the errors which most people appear to make- and that is to asssume that you know better than the men who were there at the time - and wrote about the facts- not revised History !

Now the facts that you should check is that- and I suspect the German invasion of Russia - Operation Barbarossa - started in the summer of 1941 - Agreed ?
Then it would appear that Rommel's FIRST foray into the desert war was from El Ageila- in early spring of 1942 - after the Italian 10th Army had been wiped out at Beda Fomm by Gen.O'Conner !- he then went on to Mechili where the British SECOND ARMOURED Div had been newly landed - and lost one Brigade to the Greece campaign - and were wiped out by Rommel and SOME ex British 3 inch HAA guns converted to A/T guns and captured from the Russians - quite possibly in 1941

.....and this is how the arguement has progressed from the Crusader battle - and as an author expecting people to read your output - you might try following a few threads...Oh and by the way MOST RTR units were known as Battalions i.e 1st- 3rd 4th - 5th - 6th - 7th -et al - whereas MOST ex Cavalry and converted Artillery and Infantry units were known as Regiments within the Armoured Corps - i.e - Inns of Court Regiment- 17/21st Lancers Regiment and NOT as one world famous Pulitzer prize winner claims - with much authority - "the 17th battalion of the 21st Lancers !
Cheers to you both

 

And JonS -
If and when you get to my age - you might make the odd error - but I probably won't be around to sarcastically correct you - so ....
That's unfair. I already make loads of mistakes, and my memory is terrible. Your bn/regt/bde mistake confused me, but when I tried to untangle the confusion you grumpily repeated it. The 4 x 4 = 16 post was born of frustration because I simply couldn't figure out what was going on, or reconcile the two positions.

Andreas
since you are apparently writing books on the Desert war and particularly the Crusader battles - you really should try to avoid the errors which most people appear to make- and that is to asssume that you know better than the men who were there at the time - and wrote about the facts- not revised History !

Now the facts that you should check is that- and I suspect the German invasion of Russia - Operation Barbarossa - started in the summer of 1941 - Agreed ?
Then it would appear that Rommel's FIRST foray into the desert war was from El Ageila- in early spring of 1942 - after the Italian 10th Army had been wiped out at Beda Fomm by Gen.O'Conner !- he then went on to Mechili where the British SECOND ARMOURED Div had been newly landed - and lost one Brigade to the Greece campaign - and were wiped out by Rommel
Tom, I think you owe Andreas an apology for this appallingly patronising post.

This is roughly the timeline that most folk work off:-
* early-Feb 1941: O'Connors COMPASS offensive reaches it's high tide at Beda Fomm and then El Aghelia
* late-Feb 1941: Rommel arrives in Africa
* 24 Mar 1941: Rommels 'first foray' begins
* 6 Apr 1941: German invasion of Greece commences
* mid-Apr 1941: 2nd Armoured Div destroyed and Tobruk beseiged
* late-Jun 1941: Op BARBAROSSA begins

SOME ex British 3 inch HAA guns converted to A/T guns and captured from the Russians - quite possibly in 1941
With all due respect, I am going to need a lot more than your say-so on this. I've had a rummage around and can find no evidence that British 3-in HAA were shipped to Russia. That's ok, but also I can find no evidence that British 3-in HAA were captured by the Germans in Russia. That's ok too, but I can find no evidence that that the Germans converted captured British 3-in HAA into A-Tk weapons. That's ok also, but I can't find any evidence that the Germans shipped British 3-in HAA to the desert. Now, I will freely acknowledge that my search wasn't very robust, but ... nothing.

This is besides the impossible timeline. And even if we assume that the date of Rommel's 'first foray' is early 1942, rather than early 1941, the timeline still doesn't work, since that only leaves 6-7 months for the British to ship the guns to Russia (the very first convoy from the UK arrived in Russia on 31 August 1941), the Russians to accept them, issue them into service, deploy them into combat, the Germans to capture them, ship them to Germany, convert them to A-Tk weapons, ship them to North Africa, and bring them into action. It's possible, I suppose, but not really plausible.

OTOH, I can find plenty of evidence that the Germans captured loads of Russian 3-in/76.2mm guns in Russia, many of which they put into service, some of which they shipped to North Africa as A-Tk weapons.

I am not saying that the British did not ship some for the Germans to capture, convert, and ship to NA. One can't, as they say, prove a negative. It'd be fascinating, if it is true, but without something more substantial I just can't accept it.

many or most (at one time before D Day) armoured regiments had FOUR squadrons as well as a four tank HQ ergo 4x4 Troops = 16 firefly's per regiment

Again, do you have some examples of that show armd regts regularly had four fighting sqns. Not temporary attachments, but by TOE/WE. I am genuinely interested in this, since everything I've seen points to armd regts in NWE only having three fighting sqns. An unrecognised 33% increase in the fighting strength of these units is a substantial oversight.

Best regards
Jon

 

Andreas / JonS

As the Latins were wont to say - "Notta Bene" -

The last regiment I served with in WW2 was the 16/5th Lancers of the 26th armoured Bde within 6th Armoured Division in both Italy and Austria - since 1993 they have been amalgamated with the 17/21st Lancers and are now known as "The Queen's Royal Lancers" with H.M. The Queen still their Hon. Colonel...

I only bring this up as I had made reference to the fact that SOME Armoured Brigades had FOUR Squadrons - it would appear that my old mob does this also on occasions - with "A" - "B" - "C" and "D" squadrons

NB>....
2003 - 2005
2003 saw B and C Squadrons deploy with the 1st Battalion Royal regiment of Fusiliers Battle Group on the liberation of Iraq on Operation TELIC, earning the regiment the Battle Honour Iraq 2003, its first since amalgamation. Throughout the tour they fought with considerable success on Challenger 2 and were the only Sabre squadrons to be given their own areas of operation by 7 Armoured Brigade.
While B and C Squadrons were busy with this, the remainder of the regiment not only conducted a full training year but also moved from Osnabruck to Catterick Garrison in North Yorkshire, the first time the regiment has been based in England since amalgamation.

In 2004 A and D Squadrons also deployed to Iraq. A Squadron supported 1st Battalion Princess of Wales Royal Regiment in the trouble spot of Al Amarah and were regularly engaged in small arms contacts including the notorious defence of CIMIC house in Al Amarah itself. D Squadron deployed with 1st Battalion Royal welch Fusiliers initially in Um Qasar and then Az Zubayr. They were later cut to 1st Regiment Royal Horse Artillery in Basrah Palace and assisted in putting down Mahdi uprisings of August 2004. Both squadrons had the opportunity to deploy their Challenger 2s during the tour and were engaged in a number of contacts in support of operations.

Cheers

 

JonS -
While you may ask for an apology for Andreas- and I am happy to extend one to him as I had the date wrong -however your search for the 3in HAA guns sold to Russia might have to back up a piece all the way back to 1937 when they were replaced by the new 3.7" HAA under the Command of Lt Gen. Pile.and sold to Russia - how Rommel got hold of them I do not know as I cannot find any facts on this either !
Cheers

 

I only bring this up as I had made reference to the fact that SOME Armoured Brigades had FOUR Squadrons - it would appear that my old mob does this also on occasions - with "A" - "B" - "C" and "D" squadrons

NB>....
2003 - 2005
2003 saw ...

In 2004 A and D Squadrons ...Oh come on. You've got to be kidding. 2003? 2004? Are you just taking the piss now?

 

your search for the 3in HAA guns sold to Russia might have to back up a piece all the way back to 1937 when they were replaced by the new 3.7" HAA under the Command of LtGen Pile and sold to Russia
Er, ok. It sounds unlikely (the UK selling weapons to the USSR in the run-up to WWII ... it's not like they were remotely friendly at the time, and the 3-in was still numerically predominant over the 3.7-in in 1939 and in first-line service in the UK and with the BEF) but I'll have a look.

how Rommel got hold of them I do not know as I cannot find any facts on this either!
That's fine, this stuff is hard. But how do you know - KNOW - that he had any?

Regards
Jon

Edit: a thought; it's quite likely the Germans captured some of the 120 in France with the BEF in working order. That would at least get them into German hands in good time to be converted and shipped to North Africa by early 1941.

 

JonS
Sorry to be unfair - but that's life these days and I don't take anything from anyone -including bodily fluids - I thought there would be some reference to four squadrons in the pre war era but no luck and I chanced upon the current regimental set up - or rather their set up for Irag in 2003 /4 - so humble apologies - but it was NOT uncommon....they obviously expanded for the contingencies - now they are back as recce at Catterick with a squadron in Afghanistan...with three sabre Squadrons


on the 3in British HAA guns - they were sold to Russia in the 1937 time as they were virtually obsolete - the British don't care of whether one is liked or not - it's the sale that matters ....you will find British - and US arms everywhere these days...- but even more Italian strangely enough - and I got those facts from a reputable media outlet the other day....

if you perhaps look back at your 62nd posting and to the OTOH paragraph- there is a reference by yourself that SOME 3in A/T guns from Russia were sent out to Rommel......I do know SOME of them were the converted British HAA to A/T by the Russians.....simply because a member of the RAOC told me so - now don't ask for his name and service number as I haven't got them but he was in the RAOC so it had to be before El Alamein - unless i've got that cocked up as well...Oct '42 - right ?
Cheers

 

Fireflies with British units on 15 June 1944, NWE:
2 CAB - 14
4 AB - 34
8 AB - 18
27 AB - 31
33 AB - 31
GDS AD - nil (started receiving them early July, max 36)
7 AD - 29
11 AD - 25 (max of 36 by 18 Jun)
4 Cdn AD - unknown (report 24 in late July)
1 Pol AD - 14 (max of 25 by 22 Jun)
Total - 196 (plus perhaps 1 or 2 more in various Delivery Sqns)

At no point during June and July do any of the armd units report having more than 38 Fireflies, and even that quantity occurs with just one unit on two consecutive days. There are two units that report 37 once each for one day. Otherwise all formations are at or below - often well below - 36. Nor are there sufficient 75mm Shermans at any time in these formations to equip 4 sqns.

I don't assume that I "know better than the men who were there at the time", but I am going to assume that the men who were there at the time knew how to count, and knew how to write. As someone once said, the bluntest pencil is better than the sharpest memory, but I forget who it was because I didn't write it down

Regards
Jon

 

- how Rommel got hold of them I do not know as I cannot find any facts on this either !
Cheers

Maybe - without having any hard backing for this, for the time being - they were transferred to the Nazis during the odd years of the Non-Aggression pact. Stalin was trying to keep Hitler happy, Germany was at war with England, and Russia wasn't exactly the best of friends with the West.

 

JonS-
Well, by your count there were 196 Firefly's available for action in early June 1944 - that seems to me to be rather a lot - no doubt you have the totals of Panthers and Tigers available to the enemy in the same areas !

You will no doubt recall that my initial point was that we had been advised that the 17 pounders had all been allocated to the NWE theatre and thus we couldn't have any in Italy - and thus your figures appear to confirm that statement - so I thank you for that - and again for your extra statement that we in fact had some allocated to our theatre some six months after D Day - that would be around December 1944 -

and the reason that I was not aware of that was that I was still in Hospital being patched up by a Major Gordon of # 33 Brit. Gen Hospital based at Catania - Sicily
- a fact which I can prove as I still have the paperwork on that event !

Now let us move on and allow me to think of another way to annoy you ...
Cheers

 

You will no doubt recall that my initial point was that we had been advised that the 17 pounders had all been allocated to the NWE theatre and thus we couldn't have any in Italy
Yes, I do recall that. I also recall that it is factually wrong, since there were towed 17-pr in Italy from the very beginning, and 17-pr on tracks from at least the end of 1944. I also recall that regardless of how many 17-pr on tracks (ie, Fireflies) were or weren't in Italy, 21st Tank Bde wouldn't have got any anyway, because it was a Tank Bde and Tank Bdes never got Fireflies. All you're doing is whining about stuff your unit was never going to get.

 

JonS
so you are correct - and I am factually incorrect - all but my whining about not having any for Tank bdes as I don't whine about anything - but I repeat - you are CORRECT - and I am wrong !
So you WIN !

But I must say that you have proven that in the whole of your beautiful country full of such friendly people from Dunedin - Christchurch - Oamaru - to Auckland - which I have visited - including the Airport at Wellington - with many relatives and friends- you are one of whom I have no interest in anyway having further communications-
so for the last time..
Cheers