Organisation of a Churchill equipped tank regiment

Greetings.

I am trying to pin down how a Churchill equipped tank regiment was organised in Italy in 1944.

Does any kind soul have an organisation chart that could show this to me?

Regards

Frank

 

I suggest adding 'war establishment' to the title to summon those that would know...

Have you looked in the Trux 21AG section? It's quite possible that CMF were doing something older or different but it might work as a starting point.

 

The Tank Battalions in Italy were on the official WE as of June 1944 at least, ref II/154/2 of Nov 1943, but there were certainly some modifications. Basic outline was;

RHQ - 4 inf tanks (+2 OP tanks)

HQ Sqn -
Sqn HQ
Recce Tp - 11 light tanks
Intercom Tp - 9 scout cars
AA Tp - 6 AA tanks
Admin Tp

3 Sqns, each -

Sqn HQ - 3 inf tanks (2 CS types), 1 scout car, 1 ARV
5 Tk tps, each - 3 inf tks

AFV total 58 inf tanks (6 being CS types), 11 light tanks, 6 AA tanks, 3 ARVs, 12 scout cars

There were two OP tanks on the WE at RHQ, for use by attached RA, however these were moved to Bde HQ by an amendment around March 1944; I'm not sure when that was enacted in Italy. *And as an edit, the AA Tps were deleted during 1944 in Italy as well as 21 A Gp.

I think it's been confirmed that all light tanks in Italy succumbed to a tin opener, with turrets off as standard by 1944. There was also a change in equipment for Tank Battalions in the theatre, with a temporary adjustment to put one Sqn on Shermans, leaving the other two on Churchills. The North Irish Horse site detailed this as I recall, and while I did get some figures I haven't crunched them yet. I want to say circa Autumn of 1944...

Gary

 

Gary.

Thank you for this. Any idea what CS means?

Intercom Tp is interesting. Is that the Signals Tp in armour speak?

Regards

Frank

 

CS , close support.


Close Support Tanks in 1945 | WW2Talk

Close support tanks | WW2Talk

 

Intercom Tp will be 'intercommunication' in the sense of liaison with the units/formations they're supporting, presumably because they can get on the tanks' net. As pool vehicles, they could also be loaned to those supporting them like FOOs or sappers.

 

Yes, you don't see a signal troop proper in armoured units, with each "A" vehicle having a No.19 set by around mid-war. I just had a quick look at the various MTPs and equivalents from the 1940s for the Armoured Regiment and none seem to include a description of the role of the Intercommunication Troop. MTP No.41 of 1940 mentions using scout cars for despatch rider work and as observation patrols. At this time not every scout car in the Troop was equipped with wireless. As mentioned above, liaison, message carrying would be basic duties I would expect.

 

For 51 RTR and 142 RAC, it seems they had their Shermans just before they left North Africa. The below is from July, but the 51 RTR WDs mention them in April..

 

Gary.

Thank you. Just the confirmation that I needed. A voice in my head told me that NIH did not conform to the Tank Regt Establishment Table of half Shermans and half Churchills.

Regards

Frank

 

A question: did Churchill units get a quota of Fireflies for long range anti-tank work? I seem to recall hearing that this was the case for some units in Italy.

 

Frank,

I was just looking at a tank casualty examination report on the attack on the Hitler Line - it seems that the NIH were operating Shermans then. Sherman casualties are listed as being from A, B and C Squadrons, so it appears the squadrons/platoons were mixed. I don't have the NIH WDs yet, so I can't see when they went full Churchill.





Regards,
Gary.

 

PS the number of hit mentioned refers to the location on this diagram.

 

There is some info spread over various WO204 files that I've not fully acquainted myself with yet. Of particular note was a letter by Eighth Army dated 31 July 1944 (which I don't think I've seen) authorising a temporary reduction in both Armd Regts and Tk Bns, which saw them maintained on a basis of four Tps per Sqn, and three Sqns per Regt/Bn, until such time as supplies of tanks and personnel allowed the return to the authorised WEs. The same letter also stated that there be a 'non implementation' AA Tps in the same units.

Gary

 

For info, this confirms it was planned for one Sherman per troop in 25 Tank Brigade.



And supporting what Gary mentioned, although this is from 1st June.

 

On another note, the tank losses of Eighth Army were quite staggering in this period:

 

I am not surprised by the losses. 8th Army was mounting offensives when overall, they did not much outnumber the defenders - except maybe locally? - rather than having an overall advantage in numbers. Plus Italy was good for the defenders, and there were the Germans' prepared defensive positions.

I have a copy of the Naval & Military Press reprint of the NIH Battle Report. (I seem to recall the price being a bit shocking for the length of the book - small, and about 100 pages - but it IS good.)

"On March 26 [1944] orders were received for the regiment to be prepared for embarkation to Italy. At this time fighting squadrons were organised on the basis of five Churchill troops. It was made known on arrival in Italy two Churchill troops per squadron would be replaced with Sherman troops."

"23rd-24th June ... The Sherman troops were left behind at Bastia while the remainder of the regiment came north to Narni. Those who had been with the composite Sherman squadron returned by road and the regiment was concentrated two miles outside the town of Narni...
The regiment was informed that Sherman tanks left behind at Bastia would be replaced by a "mock-up" 75mm Churchill and these started arriving on the 10th of July. The Regiment was the first Churchill regiment to be given this type of tank and although it had not the gunnery gadgets of the Sherman it was welcomed by all ranks."

The latter I interpret as Churchill NA75s.

 

The Garys.

I am looking at them on the Gothic Line in Sep 44 supporting 28 Inf Bde.

What is your assessment of the Churchill/Shernan mix at that time?

Regards

Frank

 

The doc in Gary T's post could well be the one I was talking about (Could I ask whereabouts that is in the WO204 files?). There is mention of an AFHQ letter of 05 Jul 1944 that authorised the reorg of armd units in the theatre.

There is follow-up correspondence in WO204/7399 but that only begins in July 1944. An undated letter in July from HQ RAC of AAI on the topic of Reinforcements refers to a letter from "A" Branch, HQ AAI (Adjutant-General, ie personnel) that offered calculations on personnel savings, and takes issue with their maths. It states there were four, not five, Armd and Tk Bdes on a four Tps per sqn basis, as in 2 and 26 Armd and 21 and 25 Tk, and chides them for not considering the disbanded AA Tps, and asks them to recalculate the RAC figures as they reckoned RAC was being short-changed on reinforcements.

The same file includes some correspondence from Jul and Aug 1944, underlining the fact that the reductions to units were only a temporary measure and did not impact WEs and likewise did not reflect a reduction in the number of personnel and tanks that AAI could request from the War Office. Both 7 and 9 Armd Bdes were still on the Middle East WEs for Armd Regts and Bde HQs, with the former only allowing for 52 tanks so they were already on a four Tp Sqn.

There is a document, possibly dated 21 May 1944, in WO204/7399, which lists the reorg recommended by RAC for 25 Tk Bde as of 20 May 1944. 'Present holdings' of Churchills was given as 18 MkI CS and 102 MkIII and IV 6-prs, and 58 M4A1 Shermans. The recommended reduction was to 18 CS (new type), 75 6-prs and 54 75-mm MkIV, all Churchills, with just four Shermans for Bde HQ. That would put Units on 49 tanks rather than 58.

Gary

 

By them, do you mean just NIH supporting 28 Bde?

51 RTR were certainly operating Shermans as gun tanks, although the organisation is unclear. I can have a quick look at NIH WD tomorrow but sometimes the brigade level ones are better for the lower level orgs.

 

They are from WO 204\7957 - 'Armoured Fighting Vehicles General Montgomery's views on organisation of British armour', the first part of which is his well-known treatise on British armour in Normandy, the rest full of general Italian armour documents and tank replacement organisation.