Origins Of The Sas

Discussion in 'Special Forces' started by angie999, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    On 16 November 1941, 60 former members of the Special Service Brigade, originally intended to attack Rhodes, took off in five aircraft to parachute into the Gazala-Tmimi area of Cyrenaica. Their objective was to attack airfields in the area, particularly those operating the new German Bf 109F fighters.

    The raid was a fiasco due to adverse weather in the landing area, Many were killed on landing and they were dropped way off target, with no chance of reaching their objectives. The raid was abandoned and twenty-two survivors, including Capt. David Sterling and Lt. "Paddy" Mayne, made it out to the rendezvous point, where they were brought back by the LRDG.

    Sterling and Mayne went on to be founders of the SAS, drawing correct conclusions from this fiasco about the conduct of such operations in the future.

    I do wonder if the modern 22 SAS regiment is numbered in tribute to these 22 survivors.
     
  2. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999@Dec 3 2004, 01:08 PM

    I do wonder if the modern 22 SAS regiment is numbered in tribute to these 22 survivors.
    [post=29826]Quoted post[/post]

    It was part of a deception, it waqs to make the germans beleive that there were 21 other battalions! :D :D

    :ph34r: :ph34r:
     
  3. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by morse1001+Dec 5 2004, 02:33 PM-->(morse1001 @ Dec 5 2004, 02:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-angie999@Dec 3 2004, 01:08 PM

    I do wonder if the modern 22 SAS regiment is numbered in tribute to these 22 survivors.
    [post=29826]Quoted post[/post]

    It was part of a deception, it waqs to make the germans beleive that there were 21 other battalions! :D :D

    :ph34r: :ph34r:
    [post=29883]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Nice one. Actually, the wartime SAS regiments started with 1SAS, 2SAS, not sure if there was a third.
     
  4. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999+Dec 5 2004, 03:00 PM-->(angie999 @ Dec 5 2004, 03:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by morse1001@Dec 5 2004, 02:33 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-angie999@Dec 3 2004, 01:08 PM

    I do wonder if the modern 22 SAS regiment is numbered in tribute to these 22 survivors.
    [post=29826]Quoted post[/post]

    It was part of a deception, it waqs to make the germans beleive that there were 21 other battalions! :D :D

    :ph34r: :ph34r:
    [post=29883]Quoted post[/post]

    Nice one. Actually, the wartime SAS regiments started with 1SAS, 2SAS, not sure if there was a third.
    [post=29884]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    actully the original unit was called "L detachment Special Air Service" The Special Air Service title itself was an example of deception by the british Army!

    H.Q. S.A.S. Brigade
    (plus F Squadron Phantom)
    ist S.A.S. Regiment 2nd S.A.S. Regiment
    3rd S.A.S. (French) Regiment 4th (French) Regiment
    1st Belgian (Independent) Squadron

    Cowles, Virginia., The Phantom Major , Guild, London, 1983 P307
     
  5. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    Operation Crusader and Force 'E'
    When Operation Crusader was launched, the Coleraine (6th LAA) Battery was part of a unit called Force 'E' commanded by Brigadier Reid. 'E' Force (or Oasis Force) was a diversion to the main attack in Operation Crusader. Both operations were launched on November 18th 1941.
    According to a security unconscious BBC news item at the time, the Eighth Army had 'started a general offensive in the Western Desert, with the aim of destroying the German-Italian forces in Africa'. Stewart (2002) The Allie's main objectives were to lift the siege on Tobruk, retake Cyrenaica and then advance into Tripoli. The Oasis Force diversionary line of attack was based on an earlier plan that had been rejected because of the difficult terrain involved.
    View attachment 796

    Operation Crusader was also the debut of the SAS. On the night of 16/17 November 1941 the SAS were tasked to attack Axis airfields in the Gazala-Timimi areas. This was a tragic operation. The parachute drop left the troops dispersed and separated from their munitions. Only a third of the troops reached the final rendezvous with the LRDG As a consequence of this failure, the SAS used the LRDG to insert and extract them in future operations. This marriage was a total success. When the Western Desert War was concluded, the SAS had accounted for over 400 Axis aircraft, tons of stores and had also restricted the free movement of the Axis forces at night.
    There was a relationship of types between L Detachment and 6th LAA Battery because the respective Commanding Officers knew each other personally. Blair Mayne of L Detachment and the Officer Commanding the 6th Battery, Jack Christie, had been to Queens University Belfast at the same time. They were reading Law and graduated as solicitors in April, 1938.
    In 1939 Blair Mayne was commissioned into the 5th Light Anti Aircraft Battery at Newtonards and Jack Christie was commissioned into the 6th Light Anti Aircraft Battery at Coleraine. 
    On 4 April 1940 Blair Maine transferred to the Royal Ulster Rifles and was then seconded into the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in late spring 1940. (Ross, 2003) In the same year Mayne went on to volunteer for 11th (Scottish) Commando. Blair Maine then moved on to L Detachment.
    By 28 Sept 1942, L Detachment had been absorbed into the unit called 1 SAS Regiment. 
    When Blair Maine and Jack Christie met up in the desert for the first time, the interaction went like this. Jack Christie was out on a Jock Column patrol when the came upon a camouflaged and tented area. Jack pulled back one of the tent flaps to have a look in and was greeted by Blair Maine, "Christie, what the F*** are you doing here. Clear off before you compromise us!" ...End of exchange.
     
  6. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    But the point is that the mission in November 1941 was carried out by former members of the Special Service Brigade, formed to carry out a different mission which was cancelled. Some of the survivors went on to form the SAS, but the mission itself was not carried out by the SAS, which had yet to be formed.

    If you like, it is part of the SAS's prequel.
     
  7. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    Correct, but I have done some more research on the origins of the SAS and Mortimer in "Stirlings Men" has completed the SAS prequel for me.

    After their initial disaster on 16/17th November, ‘L’ Detachment Special Air Service Brigade redeemed itself in the following operation.
    Force ‘E’ mounted a diversion to the main Op Crusader attack.

    When Operation Crusader started on 18/19 November 1941 the 6th Battery Troops were south in the area of Jarabub.

    It was in December that Stirling’s unit achieved a spectacular operational success by supporting the next phase of the Force ‘E’ operation.

    Stirling approached a fellow Scots Guards officer, Brigadier John Marriott. He let it be known that he was looking for a suitable operational tasking. Marriott passed him on to Brigadier Reid, the officer who had taken over his 29 Brigade command. Brigadier Reid informed him that on 22nd December, Force ‘E’ had to meet up with Marriott in the Antelat-Agedabia area. Because there was a threat of Axis aircraft from Agedabia interdicting his column, Reid wanted Stirling to deal with the threat. Mortimer (p29-30, 2004)
    Stirling duly obliged on the night of 14/15 December by tasking Paddy Mayne to Tamit where he destroyed twenty four aircraft. On the same night Frazer and three troopers were inserted by the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) to the Agedabia airfield. These men destroyed thirty seven aircraft that night.

    On Christmas Eve, Jock Lewes destroyed an aircraft at Nofilia and Paddy Mayne returned to Tamit and destroyed another twenty seven aircraft. This action allowed Force ‘E’ to meet up with Marriott’s group without serious opposition from Axis aircraft.

    By October 1942 ‘L’ Detachment, SAS Brigade was renamed the 1st Special Air Service Regiment.

    Before his unit was named the SAS, Stirling had accounted for 99 Axis aircraft in December 1941 alone.
     
  8. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    I thought that the Special Air Service Brigade was so named in order to make the Germans think that the British had 3,000 elite paratroopers in the Western Desert when in fact the unit was barely a company strong &, apart from its first mission, generally penetrated enemy lines by vehicle.

    I believe that 22 SAS Regiment was so named when formed in Malaya in the early 1950s because there was already a Territorial Army unit called 21 SAS Regt. However, I don't know why this unit was numbered 21.
     
  9. handtohand22

    handtohand22 Senior Member

    1942 - 1945
    1 SAS (British)
    2 SAS (British)
    3 SAS (French)
    4 SAS (French)
    5 SAS (Belgian Independant Parachute Company)

    1946
    21 SAS (TA)

    1947
    21 SAS (Artists) Volunteers (TA)

    1950
    Malayan Scouts (SAS)

    1951
    22 SAS

    1959
    23 SAS (TA)
     
  10. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    isn't it true that you could be shot as a spy if recaptured

    I think he would be have been covered by the "Commando" order
     
  11. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    I have read so many misnomas that it is time the FACTS were laid on the table.
    Here is a little of the origins of the SAS.

    This is a brief insight into the history of the Special Air Service.

    It should be noted that in no way is this a complete rendition of the early days.

    The Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) was Britain's original Special Force in North Africa, long before the SAS burst on to the scene. With it's unrivalled mastery of the Western Desert, in it's wide ranging and heavily armed trucks, the LRDG even earned the praise of Rommel, the Desert Fox himself, for their skilful reconnaissance, punishing raids and powers of evasion.


    The Beginning of the Elite.

    In 1941 Capt David Stirling, an officer in the Scots Guards serving with No 8 Commando thought of taking a small highly trained group of men, and making them a mobile raiding force comprising of 4 or 5 soldiers. Although working in teams they would retain their individuality enabaling them to be part of a very elite raiding force. His idea came to fruition when he was granted permission to start with 100 men split into raiding parties. These groups were sent out to infiltrate and attack German supply lines and fuel dumps, a very difficult task with slim odds of success. Never the less it was perceived as a way to hit Romel hard and fast giving an edge to the 8th Army and her allies. Most of the original volunteers were already commando trained but needed to hone special abilities in survival, endurance, camouflage and weapons. Each candidate also had to show the ability to parachute, which was done at the first training camp in Kabrit by jumping from a truck traveling at 30 mph.
    As there were no previous standards or requirements to meet, most of the training was perfected by trial and error resulting in a highly efficient and resilient group of “Special Men”. The selected and their methods were then adopted and perfected to the point it became a raw basic requirement for future volunteers.
    Later in 1941 the winged dagger, symbolizing the sword Excalibur, with the motto: ‘Who Dares Wins’ was to be worn on the beret. At first the beret was white, and later changed to a sand color to immortalize the color of the sand where the SAS was founded. The SAS’s distinctive wings were originally worn on the right arm and were earned by completing seven parachute jumps. If a man distinguished himself in battle he wore the wings on his left breast.

    The first group of Dave Stirling’s Raiders were known as ‘L Detachment’ with a rouse of being accredited to a non- existent Special Air Service Brigade to fool the Germans. Finding himself with an ever speeding watch with time against him Dave Stirling couldn’t afford the 6 months it would have taken to receive the needed supplies for a basic camp. So part of the first task given was to acquire these supplies from the New Zealanders.
    It was also proposed that a special bomb should be available for the hit and run tactics the groups were to employ. No ordinary bomb it had to be a two fold method of destruction, an incendiary and explosive device in one.
    A specialist Royal Engineers sapper told Stirling it was an impossible task, but after spending two weeks experimenting Sapper Jock Lewis solved the problem. With a mixture of a new material called plastic some used oil and thermite packed together it became known as the Lewis Bomb, and is still taught to the “Special Men”.


    The first mission L Detachment was assigned to was in November 1941. A Parachute assault on a German airfield in North Africa, sadly due to very bad weather and high winds the task was very costly for the detachment as only 22 of the 66 survived. There is a speculative and unconfirmed report that the title Twenty Two SAS of present, is in memory of those original 22 survivors. After reevaluation and adopting methods used by the Long Range Desert Group. Dave Stirling's group of avengers learned to cope with the desert and it’s many problems.
    Because an ordinary compass proved ineffective in the desert a Sun Compass was eventually invented as were many other survival techniques including making a limited amount of drinking water by fitting a condenser to the vehicle’s radiators, this created a vacuum and allowed steam to cool off resulting in the coolant to be sucked back in for normal vehicle temperature control.

    Using an oasis at Jalo the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) was used to transport the L Detachment and its supplies to and from their targets.
    In December 1941 a raid took place consisting of 12 men over a distance of 350 miles. This time it was a highly successful mission destroying 24 German planes and a fuel dump. It is said that running out of bombs Dave Stirling’s 2i/c Paddy Mayne pulled an instrument panel out of a cockpit with his bare hands? The next day 4 raiders destroyed 37 planes at Agedadia showing the high ups Stirling's ideas of small team raiding parties could be successful . Within the following two weeks 90 planes alone were destroyed. Stirling himself being credited with taking part in a raid at the harbour of Benghazi.

    In June 1942 Dave Stirling managed to plunder a number of jeeps and other vehicles fitted with Vickers K machineguns and .50mm Browning‘s. He then raided a German airfield at Sidi Haneish with 18 jeeps and 64 guns taking out or destroying a large number of airplanes.
    A Quote to the Brass was “It was damned effective it was a stunning success“ Although a reported six men and there equipment were lost in the attack.
    Over time with the reports of success The SAS grew adopting The Greek Sacred Squadron (Artisan’s) and the Special Boat Section of the Royal Marines was added into the command.
    Also in 1942 The Special Air Service was Officially presented with Regimental status. Shortly after and contrary to Dave Stirlings original ideas the SAS took part in a large raid on Benghazi and Tobruk. It turned out to be one of the worst disasters to the Regiment. Not only was it an objective too big for the SAS’s special skills. It had also been compromised as the enemy new they were coming. Perhaps it should better be recorded as a suicide mission which proved to be a costly attempt by people who didn’t understand the purpose of the SAS or how and when they should be used.
    In 1943 Dave Stirling was captured and sent to a prisoner of war camp. It is said he escaped and was recaptured at least four time causing the Germans to imprison him at the notorious Colditz Castle until the end of the war. A lucky man if you concider the fifty officers who were murdered in the great escape for their repeated escape attempts and the high number of Stirling's own men who disappeared from German hands without a trace.
    After his Capture Stirlings brother William and Paddy Mayne took over 1 SAS. Paddy Mayne redesignated his group to the Special Raiding Force. While Bill Stirling formed 2 SAS leaving the SBS to become the Special Boat Service under command of Earl Geroge Jellicoe.

    During the short life of the SAS the Regiment was measured by the massive destruction of over 400 enemy airplanes and numerous fuel dumps in N Africa. The SAS also saw action behind the lines in Germany, Sicily, Italy, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Norway and the rest of Europe.

    After WWII 1st and 2nd SAS were disbanded, but the name recognition and high levels of training and skills were retained by:
    3 SAS (French) were amalgamated into 2 Regiment Chasseur Parachutists
    4 SAS (French) were amalgamated into 3 Regiment Chasseur Parachutists
    5 SAS (Belgian) were amalgamated into the Belgian army becoming 1st Battalion Belgian Para Commando’s.


    .
    Looking back the early 1950's was a dangerous time around the world, There was the Korean police action! The Malayan Emergency, and the Cold War including the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia.

    Now I know the answer, but I will leave it to you to choose from the list below of how and why the SAS were reformed! Of cause your own theories will be just as interesting to read and speculate over!! And no doubt the thousands claiming to have been on the Iranian Embassy roof at Princes Gate will argue for years on this one!!!

    1. 1 and 2 SAS were rename and became 1 and 2 Parachute Regiment and were based in Aldershot and Hongkong.

    2. Some reports claim with the onset of the Suez Crisis Dave Sterling foresaw a possible Russian involvement in the middle eastern desserts. With no trained forces to protect British interests, he successfully pulled the strings to reform the Special Air Service and their skills learned in the deserts of N Africa during WWII.

    3. Another report claims that Lt Col Mike Calvert who was based in Hong Kong at the beginning of the Malayan conflict was tasked with evaluating the communist influence. The result being the formation of the Malayan Scouts and titled A,B and C Squadrons who operated against Communist terrorists in the Malay jungle. In 1953 the Malayan Scouts were renamed the Special Air Service.

    4. And yet another report says, the SAS never were disbanded. They created the story to protect themselves against the public perception, of Britain having and using a Mercenary force paid for by the tax payer. During the time of "Suspended Animation" they moved to Bradbury lines at Hereford, later to be called Sterling lines in honor of David Sterling. Over a two to three year period they perfected there training techniques and developed methods of insurgence like the HALO and the ram air parachute. Because the world was changing fast with a continuous threat of a Nuclear winter and a Russian dominance the British wanted to be ready for any possible events.
     
  12. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    Lt.Col Sir Archibald David Stirling DSO, OBE (November 15, 1915 - November 4, 1990) was a Scottish laird, mountaineer, World War II British Army officer, and the founder of the Special Air Service..




    Life before the war
    Stirling was born at his family's ancestral home, Keir House in the parish of Lecropt in Perthshire (near Stirling). He was the son of Brigadier General Archibald Stirling of Keir and Margaret Fraser, daughter of Simon Fraser, the Lord Lovat a descendant from King Charles II of England. His cousin was Simon Fraser, 15th Lord Lovat. He was educated at Ampleforth College and Trinity College, Cambridge. An athletic figure of 6 ft 6 in tall he was training to climb Mount Everest when World War II broke out.

    World War II and the founding of the SAS
    He joined the Scots Guards as a subaltern in 1939, and in June 1940 volunteered for the new No.8 Commando under Lt. Col. Robert Laycock which became part of Force Z,0 later named "Layforce". After Layforce and No.8 Commando were disbanded in 1941, Stirling remained convinced that due to the mechanized nature of war a small team of highly trained soldiers with the advantage of surprise could exact greater damage to the enemy's ability to fight than an entire platoon.
    Aware that taking his idea up through the chain of command was unlikely to work, Stirling decided to go straight to the top. On crutches following a parachuting accident he sneaked into Middle East headquarters in Cairo in an effort to see Commander-in-Chief General Claude Auchinleck. Taking cover in an office, Stirling came face to face with Deputy Commander Middle East General Ritchie. Stirling explained his plan to Ritchie and Ritchie convinced Auchinleck to allow Stirling to form a new Special Forces unit. The unit was given the deliberately misleadingly name "L Detachment, Special Air Service Brigade" to reinforce an existing deception of a parachute brigade existing in North Africa.
    His initial attempts at attacking by parachute landing were disastrous and resulted in a high percentage of his men being killed or wounded. Escaping only with the help of the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) he decided that approaching by desert under the cover of night would not only be the safest but also the most effective means of approach. As quickly as possible he organised raids on ports using this simple method, often driving through checkposts at night using the language skills of some of his soldiers to bluff the guards. Stirling was captured by the Germans in January 1943. He escaped on four occasions, before being sent to Colditz Castle, where he remained for the rest of the war. After his capture his brother Bill Stirling and Blair 'Paddy' Mayne took command of the SAS.
    In the fifteen months before Stirling's capture, the SAS had destroyed over 250 aircraft on the ground, dozens of supply dumps, roads, and railway communications wrecked, and they had put hundreds of enemy vehicles out of action.

    Mercenary work

    Worried that Britain was losing its power after the War, Stirling organized deals to sell British weapons and military personnel to other countries, like Saudi Arabia for various privatized foreign policy operations.

    Later life
    Lt Col David Stirling was concerned about the power of the trade unions so in 1975 he set up the organisation GB75, which he described as 'an organisation of apprehensive patriots' which would help the country in the event of strikes.
    He was knighted in 1990, and died later that year.
    In 2002 the SAS memorial, a statue of Stirling standing on a rock, was opened on the Hill of Row near his family's estate at Park of Keir.
    The current Laird of the Keir estate is his nephew Archie Stirling, a millionaire businessman and former Scots Guards officer.
     
  13. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    The Young Mayne

    Robert Blair Mayne was born at the family home, Mountpleasant on the 11th January 1915 in the small town of Newtownards, Northern Ireland. He was the second youngest child in a family of seven, four boys and three girls and was named after his Mothers cousin, Robert Blair.
    Perhaps there was an element of fate in that particular choice of name as Robert Blair was then a Captain serving with the Border Regiment. He too proved to be a brave soldier as he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in 1915 for rescuing some men while they were trapped under heavy German fire. Sadly he was killed while in the trenches by a single shot, possibly a snipers bullet on the 16th July 1916. Education for the young Blair took place at three schools, Miss Brown's kindergarden, The Ards Academy and Regent House. It was while at Regent House that his prowess and skill at the game of rugby started to develop and even though he was only sixteen he was also playing for his local club side Ards RFC. His education continued at The Queens University in Belfast. where he was studying for his chosen profession of law. He continued playing rugby and also took part in the sport of boxing at which he went on to become the Irish universities heavyweight champion. But it was rugby that was really his main passion and he gained many representative honours for his province, Ulster and six international caps for his country Ireland. Perhaps his greatest sporting honour was to be selected to play in South Africa as a member of The British Lions Touring Party of 1938. The one word used over and over again by the press and media of the time to describe his performances on the field was outstanding. His playing career was cut short by the outbreak of the world war in 1939 and this, plus the injuries he suffered, surely robbed him of many more sporting honours, and also his country of a superb player.
    The Officer Training Corps at Queens had been his first contact with the military but sadly they did not see his potential and quite foolishly made derogetery remarks regarding his soldiering qualities, they like so many other people would be proven very wrong.


    The War years.

    After initially serving with The Queen's University Officer Training Corps who said he would never be officer material Mayne joined the 5th Light Anti-Aircraft Battery Supplementary Reserve. Blair transferred to various other units, The Royal Ulster Rifles and The Cameroonian’s before seeing his first action with The 11th Scottish Commando as part of the Layforce where he was mentioned in dispatches. After the brutal and confused action at the Litani river, in which 130 officers and men, around a third of the strike force, were wounded or killed, that Mayne reacted violently against what he believed was the ineptitude of his Commanding Officer, whom he considered inexperienced, arrogant and insincere. Some sources state that Mayne struck him, and was awaiting court-martial and almost certain dismissal. However, his leadership on the raid had attracted the attention of Captain David Stirling who recruited him as one of the founder members of the Special Air Service. Mayne participated in many night raids deep behind enemy lines in the deserts of Egypt and Libya, where the SAS fought and created havoc by destroying hundreds of German and Italian aircraft on the ground.
    After Stirling was captured 1st SAS Regiment was reorganized into two separate parts, the Special Raiding Squadron and the Special Boat Squadron the forerunner of the Special Boat Service. As a Major, Mayne was appointed to command the Special Raiding Squadron and led the unit with distinction in Italy until the end of 1943. In January 1944 he was promoted to lieutenant colonel and appointed commanding officer of 1st SAS Regiment. He subsequently led the SAS with great distinction through the final campaigns of the war in France, Holland, Belgium, Germany and Norway, often campaigning alongside local resistance fighters including the French Maquis. As the SAS fought it's way into Germany the fighting became even harder, but again Blair Mayne led by example. The Regiment lost many men during the European campaigns and not always in battle as the Germans executed many of the men they captured. The men were only too aware of this fact but it did not deter them from their tasks. Everyone a hero in his own right.
    Lt Col Blare (Paddy) Mayne became one of the British Army's most heavily decorated soldiers and received the Distinguished Service Order with three bars, one of only seven British servicemen to receive that award four times during World War II. Mayne pioneered the use of military Jeeps to conduct surprise hit-and-run raids, particularly on enemy airfields. By the end of the war it was claimed that he had personally destroyed 130 aircraft.
    In recognition of his leadership and personal disregard for danger while in France, in which he trained and worked closely with the French Resistance, Mayne received the second bar to his DSO. Additionally, the post-war French Government awarded him the Legion d'honneur and the Croix de Guerre, the first foreigner to receive such a dual honour.
    It has often been questioned why Mayne was not awarded a Victoria Cross, and even King George VI was to express surprise at the omission. The answer almost certainly lies in Mayne's abrasive attitude to some of his superiors, combined with the Army hierarchy's askance view of the unconventional attitudes and tactics of the special forces.
    In the Spring of 1945 Mayne was recommended for a VC after single-handedly rescuing a squadron of his troops, trapped by heavy gunfire near the town of Oldenberg in north-west Germany. After the squadron became pinned down and sustained casualties, Mayne rescued the wounded, lifting them one by one into his Jeep before destroying the enemy gunners in a nearby farmhouse. However, although the VC recommendation was signed by Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, commander of the Allied 21st Army Group, Mayne instead received a fourth DSO.

    After the War

    After he had returned home from his war time duties the injuries received during many parachute drops and hard fought battles meant that Mayne could not resume his successful sporting career. He became a member of an expedition to the Falkland Islands in the Antarctic before injuries once again forced him to return to Northern Ireland. His next post saw him become the secretary to The Law Society of Ireland. He continued with many public duties and remained a firm supporter of all his former sporting clubs. He travelled extensively throughout Ireland, Scotland and mainland U.K.
    Sadly at the young age of 40 he met his death in a car crash on The Scrabo Road in Newtownards, he was just a few hundred yards from his home on December 1955.

    Note:
    Major General Sir Robert Laycock, The Post War Chief of Combined Operations,
    wrote :
    "I feel I must drop you a line just to tell you how very deeply I appreciate the great honour of being able to address, as my friend, an officer who has succeeded in accomplishing the practically unprecedented task of collecting no less than four DSO's. (I am informed that there is another such superman in the Royal Air Force.)
    You deserve all the more, and in my opinion, the appropriate authorities do not really know their job. If they did they would have given you a VC as well. Please do not dream of answering this letter, which brings with it my sincerest admiration and a deep sense of honour in having, at one time, been associated with you".

    An Early Day Motion put before the House of Commons in June 2005 and supported by more than 100 MPs also stated that:

    This House recognises the grave injustice meted out to Lt Col Paddy Mayne, of 1st SAS, who won the Victoria Cross at Oldenburg in North West Germany on 9th April 1945; notes that this was subsequently downgraded, some six months later, to a third bar DSO, that the citation had been clearly altered and that David Stirling, founder of the SAS has confirmed that there was considerable prejudice towards Mayne and that King George VI enquired why the Victoria Cross had `so strangely eluded him'; further notes that on 14th December it will be 50 years since Col Mayne's untimely death, in a car accident, and this will be followed on 29th January 2006 by the 150th anniversary of the signing of the Royal Warrant to institute the Victoria Cross; and therefore calls upon the Government to mark these anniversaries by instructing the appropriate authorities to act without delay to reinstate the Victoria Cross given for exceptional personal courage and leadership of the highest order and to acknowledge that Mayne's actions on that day saved the lives of many men and greatly helped the allied advance on Berlin.
     
  14. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    The 21st SAS was named in memory of two of the war time battalions i.e. 1 and 2.
    Why they were called 21 rather than 12 is unknown by me....then when the Regs were foremd they became 22 and another TA unit was 23.....

    There were I think 4 SAS battalions, one of which was French or Allied perhaps 4...

    Then can I throw in the 11th Special Air Service Battalion who were formed in 1940 well before the desert boys!
     
  15. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    We never had the benefit of the SAS,,,So we did it ourselves...Seriously. Several times....
    Sapper
     
  16. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    Sorry Airborne,
    The amount of men needed to make one Brigade never mind your quoted number is fiction. In no way has the SAS ever had so many men under its wings.
    The French and Belgium troops jumped on the name but were never part of the British SAS. The British SAS was recruited from within the Commonwealth mainly Australia, New Zealand, Rhodesia (formerly the Sellous Scouts).
    You also have to remember it was a volunteer force only, and those who were badged had to pass a form of selection, as nowadays not everyone accomplished the standard required. Taking into account it was war time, I can’t see the commanders being too willing to reduce the numbers of their men by letting them volunteer. I also can’t imagine expected standards to be lowered.. In comparison present day selection only produces +/- 10 acceptable candidates per selection course (2 courses per year) With most candidates taking two attempts before being Badged! The Regiment is under manned most of the time so I suspect the Parachute Regiments and the Royal Marine Commando’s were looked at as being SF, which if true could produce the numbers required for Brigade level.
    An average Brigade strength is 4500 men, that is the equivalent of 4 or 5 Regiments, So to have the amount of SF Brigades you state (“5 Brigade”) would be the equivalent of at least 1 Division!!!!
    Not with standing that the British SAS were only granted Regimental status in 1942, so even mathematically a Brigade level of volunteer SAS Troopers was none obtainable in the three remaining years of WWII.
    As for the Long Range Desert Groups they were the originals, The SAS learned a lot and perfected their own tactics from what the LRDG did and achieved.


    PS Hi Sapper.... hope you doing ok..
     
  17. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi! By the way.....
    How is Angie these days?
    Sapper
     
  18. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    If you are directing your comments to me can you tell me where in my post I mentioned 4 or 5 Brigades?
    If you read it correctly which I suggest you do next time instead of reading into a psot something which isn't there...I said 4 Battalions.....and there was a Brigadier SAS Troops and the 1st SAS Brigade was attached to the 1st Allied Airborne Army.....suggest you think before typing.....
     
  19. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    The 21st SAS was named in memory of two of the war time battalions i.e. 1 and 2.
    Why they were called 21 rather than 12 is unknown by me....then when the Regs were foremd they became 22 and another TA unit was 23.....

    There were I think 4 SAS battalions, one of which was French or Allied perhaps 4...

    Then can I throw in the 11th Special Air Service Battalion who were formed in 1940 well before the desert boys!


    Airborne Medic,
    You are quite correct, It was me who mentioned Brigades!! And you truely did say 4 Battalions of men. However 4 battalions would be the equivalent of a 1 Brigade!!!
    And as I said previously there has never been a brigade of SAS during WWII or afterwards... Airborne Forces (Para's) like to think they are Special Forces they are not!! they are a fast light infantry who volunteer to go by air and get out half way ...... The Royal Marine, Parachute Regiment and RAF Regiment are SFSG (special forces support Group)

    21st Battalion SAS (Artists Rifles) are a Volunteer TA unit, they were originally formed during WWII and assisted the Greek underground earning the title 21 Artist Rifles, hence the cap badge is also a battle honor, They were later adopted in to the SAS and were finally disbanded in 1947. It was then reformed to be a TA unit in the early 60's.
    The suggestion that 21 SAS was a combination of 1 and 2 SAS is utter rubbish invented by someone trying to look good.... :D

    Do not assume, and don''t start a battle you have no experiance of ... Keep your asprin and bandaides handy you may need them!!!!
    I assure you this is a subject where your knowledge is aquired from myths and fiction... Mine is from reality...:p
     
  20. Saracen

    Saracen Junior Member

    Hi! By the way.....
    How is Angie these days?
    Sapper

    Sorry for the delay Brian, yes were are fine hope your still chasing your young help around....;)

    I am in the process of moving, so I will wish everyone the compliments of the season... God I miss the mess at this time of year...

    Later my friend take care

    Regards

    :cowboy_125:
     

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