Penn Common HAA gunners

Discussion in 'General' started by Patwalker, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    I have been researching a local wartime HAA Bty that was on Penn Common in the W.Midlands (UK) and found a fascinating and tragic story of Dunkirk,Penn Common,early experimental radar, Singapore and capture, Burma Railway, Rayoku Maru and few survivors returning. These were 3 Bty of 6 Regt HAA. They left Penn Nov 1941 and their place was taken by another unit.A letter from one of these gunners says he was in the 350th Bty `A`Troop. this does not show anywhere in the order of battle. I have found 137 Field Rgt RA (TA) 10th West Lancs but I am assured that this is a field gun regt not HAA. Perhaps this `letter writer` was actually with a searchlight battery.one detailed as the 350th.In which case I need to find out who he was attached to. They took over Penn Common Oct 1941 and assuming they had the same complement of guns as 3 Bty would have had 8 in place. Definitely HAA 3.7" mobile. Stayed for a year.
    Can any expert help identify the second set of gunners.
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Pat,

    Welcome to the forum and goodluck with your search.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  3. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Hi Pat and welcome

    Here is a link showing who 350 Battery were with. You're hunch about a search light unit was correct.

    RA 1939-45 38 SL Rgt

    Cheers - Robert
     
  4. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    My word that was quick !! Is there any way of determining who they were attached to or the Regt at the time. ??
     
  5. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Pat Walker

    Just whats in the link, 350 Battery, 38 Searchlight Regiment, 50th Anti Aircraft Brigade. 351, 352 & 353 Batteries part of this regiment as well. It says based in Derby. The type of unit is static.

    Looked on the National Archives database and I found a war Diary for 350 Search Light Battery - Reference No WO166 - 3193 for the period August 1939 to May 1941. That would involve a visit to read and find out more.

    That's all I can find I'm afraid. Did a google search and drew a blank there.

    Robert.
     
  6. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    Many thanks for that. I tried sending you a brief story of what had happened to the 3rd Bty who were the previous occupants of the position but when I had spent half an hour typing it out it said I was not allowed to send it to you so I lost the lot !!
    One thing you state does puzzle me.... They were static.
    These guns here were all mobile 3.7" and towed away on completion of their posting.
    My son-in-law does sometimes go down to the NA so I`ll give him the reference you gave and see if he can have a look-see.
    If I get the energy I`ll try again to send the story via your own email.!!
    Patrick
     
  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Patrick,
    Just a quick tip - either type your reply on a doc and then copy and paste it into your PM reply box OR, copy the text before you click on send, just in case. Been caught out on that a few times myself.
    Good luck with the research.
    D
     
  8. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    PatWalker

    Dont' worry, you don't have to type it again, as I got it and replied to you.

    Interesting story. You should have posted it here.

    Robert
     
  9. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Hi - PatWalker

    Definition of a Search Light Battery - A site in which one or more searchlights were positioned to locate enemy aircraft or surface vessels for the benefit of batteries.

    No artillery was used by the 350th Battery as they were one of these and according to the RA site I looked at, were based in Derby as part of the 50th Anti-Aircraft Brigade.

    As they were UK based, they were located in key positions in towns and cities. They did not need to move around and why I described them as static.

    There was probably also another HAA unit (that replaced the one you described that went to Singapore), which was also a part of the 50th AA Brigade.

    If anyone has a copy of the Brigadier Routledge book on Anti-Aircraft Units during WW2, this may, excuse the pun, throw some light on the matter.:D

    Robert
     
  10. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    If anyone has a copy of the Brigadier Routledge book on Anti-Aircraft Units during WW2, this may, excuse the pun, throw some light on the matter.:D

    Robert

    As requested, I've had a look in the index of said book.
    Not a dicky bird I'm sorry to say. No mention of 350th Battery either as S/L or HAA and, likewise, nothing about 38 S/L Regt. either.
    Drew a complete blank.

    Bod
     
  11. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Thanks Bod.

    I thought you'd pop up to answer this one.

    Although they did an important job, they were not a sexy type of unit to be in and remain fairly anonymous in the records.

    Many thanks - Robert
     
  12. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    (This is the story that unfolded for anyone who might want to know and many thanks for all the good advice so far )
    Originally Posted by Patwalker
    Dear `Ramacal`,
    Many thanks for that very quick reply. I am still not quite sure how these units worked. There were obviously 3 Bty`s with their guns to the Regt and then each must have had ancillary troops and stores with them. So one S/L battery (or more) could well have been with each Bty but how was the Bty designated in relation to the S/L`s . As far as I can see they were part of 50 AA Bde but how can you find the individual Bty`s that formed this Bde.?? You are obviously a lot more knowledgeable on this subject than I. What started as a blank sheet of paper with the words Penn Common Gunners a couple of months ago became an amazing story of hard ship and fortitude. I managed to get to talk to several people who lived here during the war ( as children ) and they recalled little bits of info but none realised the whole picture and I am hoping the local paper will publish this second instalment.
    The whole key that unlocked the story was provided by a former resident who sent me a copy of the Billeting order his parents had been issued with to take on two Cpl`s from the Bty. Up till then noone knew the Regt or Battery names.
    It is a harrowing story and not well known, if at all by many, certainly noone round here.
    The original Bty`s as part of 6th Regt HAA came back from Dunkirk after leaving all their heavy equip behind. They were re-equiped and in Nov 1940 ended up on the Common here, at least 3rd Bty did with their guns. There was an experimental Radar setup here to work with GL1 but never a success and replaced with Canadian GL3. The unit of Guns was drafted to the middle east in Nov 1941. After sailing for Iraq they were re-routed to the Fareast because of the Japs attack on Malaya. Sadly their guns were unloaded in the M/E so they arrived in Singapore with nothing Jan 13 th 1942. Hastily re-equipped from local stocks they were pushed out round S`pore city. Within two weeks the whole Army that could withdraw to the Island from Malaya did so. By Feb 15th the whole lot of 3rd Bty went into the bag when S`pore capitulated. The two other Bty`s (12th and 15th ) had been sent prior to this to Sumatra and after a difficult existance they too abandoned their guns to escape to Java and fight as infantry. After two airfields they were defending fell to the Japs they also went into the bag around Mar 8th 1942. Then the hell started.
    Those in S`pore ended up either working in the Docks or sent to Saigon to work there. Some of the POW`s in Java were sent to Ballale Island to build an airstrip and Mid 1943 were murdered to the last man by the Japs because they feared the Americans were about to invade.
    Those back on the mainland at the end of 1942 were rounded up and sent to work on the Burma Railway. They spent 3 and a half years on war work under the most horrendous conditions. In late 1944 some of the POW`s including survivors of 3rd Bty were loaded onto two Jap transport ships and sent off to Japan to do forced labour there. Sadly by one of those ironies of war the ships were torpedoed by American Submarines.There were more casualties here to 3rd Bty. Some on the Rakuyo Maru and more on the Kachidoki Maru. I have managed to locate the death details of 97 of those from the Bty who had started life on the Common. I have also seen two letters from survivors telling of their bestial conditions and these were some of the very few who came back.
    If you can point me in the direction of how to find out the Regt name or Bty name this would be fantastic for the second set of gunners.
    Many thanks PatrickOriginally Posted by Patwalker
     
  13. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    In case anyone was interested in knowing about the further research I have dug up about this particular battery.( 3rd Bty of 6th Regt HAA)
    They returned from Dunkirk with out any equipment in 1940 after being sent as part of the BEF. They had a pretty busy time during the fighting withdrawl and got away at Dunkirk.
    After re-equiping they went down to the South of London and took part in the defence during the Blitz, at one time being part of a site with no less than 16 HAA guns on it.
    When the Germans switched to bombing Midland cities they were withdrawn to take up a position near Wolverhampton at Upper Penn.
    The Regt`s other two Batteries were split around the area later and formed part of the ring to defend Birmingham , Wolverhampton and Coventry.
    After about a year they were posted to the Middle East and the relieving Regt to Penn Common was the 71st HAA.
    6th Regt ended up in the Far East and was decimated by Japanese attrocities while POW`s after capture when Singapore capitulated.
    71 Regt HAA spent about a year on the Common and then they were posted to Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa. Once ashore they spent most of their time defending local airfields and moving around.
    They spent several months there after the Germans had withdrawn on their defeat by British and US units. They avoided the invasion of Sicilly and their next move was to Italy and they followed up the units fighting up the country pushing the Germans out.
    They were used in a variety of roles besides AA and took on bunkers and strong points and even indirect fire targets.
    It was while in Italy that the RA units had their GL3 radar sets ( centimetric) and after the experts had tweaked them for better performance they discovered that they were sensitive enough to pick up the flight of incoming mortar rounds and shells. This led to the ability to track them back to source and get counter battery fire laid down with good effect.
    Whereas 71 Regt HAA was then disbanded in Jan 1945 during the winding down and reorganisation of troops the 6th Regt returned from the Far East completely decimated after the Japanese capitulation in Aug.
     
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  14. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    Pat order of Balltle for 1939

    4th Anti-Aircraft Division: HQ Chester (Raised 1 September 1938) - Western Command
    33rd (Western) Anti-Aircraft Brigade: Woolton, Liverpool - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    (Raised 1 November 1936 at Liverpool)
    70th (3rd West Lancashire) Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 211th (13th West Lancashire), 212th (27th West Lancashire), 216th (14th West Lancashire)
    Btys: Igburth, Liverpool
    309th Bty: Bootle, Liverpool
    81st Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 253rd, 254th (Cheshire) Btys: Stockport
    255th (Cheshire) Bty: Stalybridge
    (Was to have been formed by The Loyals with RHQ and 287th Bty at Pontefract and
    270th Bty at Rotherham (ex 68th AA Brigade)
    93rd Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 288th, 289th Btys: Oxton, Birkenhead
    267th (Wirral) Bty: West Birkenhead
    290th Bty: Chester
    38th (The King’s Regiment) Anti-Aircraft Battalion, R.E. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 350th-353rd Coys: Liverpool
    62nd (The Loyal) Searchlight Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 435th-437th Btys: Lytham
    34th (South Midland) Anti-Aircraft Brigade: Coventry - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    (Raised 1 April 1938 at Coventry)
    69th (The Royal Warwickshire Regiment) Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    HQ, 190th-191st Btys: Edgbaston, Birmingham 15
    192nd, 199th Btys: King’s Norton Birmingham
    73rd Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 209th (Wolverhampton) Bty: Wolverhampton
    210th (West Bromwich) Bty: West Bromwich
    311th Bty: Brierley Hall
    95th Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    HQ, 293rd Bty: Warnwood Heath, nr. Birmingham
    204th (Warwickshire) Bty: Saltley, Birmingham
    44th Anti-Aircraft Brigade: Manchester - East Lancashire Area, Western Command
    (Raised 29 September 1938 at Manchester)
    65th (The Manchester Regiment) Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - East Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 181st-183rd, 196th Btys: Hulme, Manchester 15
    39th (The Lancashire Fusiliers) Anti-Aircraft Battalion, R.E. (T.A.) - East Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 354th-357th Coys: Salford
    71st (East Lancashire) Searchlight Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - East Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 462nd-464th Btys: Failsworth, near Manchester
    53rd Light Anti-Aircraft Brigade: Chester - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    (Raised 24 August 1939 at Chester)
    15th (Isle of Man) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Cmd
    HQ, 41st, 42nd Btys: Douglas, Isle of Man
    129th Bty:
    21st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ: Liverpool
    67th Bty: Bromborough
    68th Bty: Ellesmore Port
    69th Bty: Northwich
    80th Bty: Kearsley, Manchester
    136th Bty (393rd Tp: Tern Hill; 394th Tp: Shawbury; 395th-396th Tps: Crew Jct.)
    25th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 225th (27th West Lancashire), 81st, 82nd Btys: Liverpool
    33rd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ: Liverpool
    132nd Bty: (377th, 378th Tps: Lostock; 379th Tp: Prescot; 380th Tp: Speke)
    54th Anti-Aircraft Brigade: South Birmingham - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    (Raised 1 September 1939 at Sutton Coldfield. Later at Chester)
    41st (5th North Staffordshire Regiment) Anti-Aircraft Battalion, R.E. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 362nd-365th Coys: Stoke-on-Trent
    45th (The Royal Warwickshire Regiment) Anti-Aircraft Battalion, R.E. (T.A.) - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    HQ, 378th-381st Coys: Birmingham 5
    59th (Warwickshire) Searchlight Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - South Midland Area, Southern Command
    HQ, 399th, 427th, 428th Btys: Coventry
    61st (South Lancashire Regiment) Searchlight Regiment, R.A. (T.A.) - West Lancashire Area, Western Command
    HQ, 432nd-434th Btys: St. Helens
     
  15. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    I have just got back to view this site and find a message from a Robert Waters ? which through inexperience I have managed to delete by accident. If this Robert could contact me on my email Patwalker37srpen@aol.com I can give further details of what I have discovered about the 3rd Battery of the 6th HAA. This has come about after I went to the National Archives in London and managed to view the War Diaries of the Regt. These give an overall idea of who was where on a certain date but are not complete. The actions in Singapore are missing for obvious reasons but quite a lot about Java and Sumatra.
    I am about to go away again for a few days but hope after this to put what I have found out into some sort of order. There are casualty `question` lists from 1945 for all the Batteries of the regt and fairly extensive lists on the net for the FEPOW`s.
    Some of what I had been told from various sources is now found to be incorrect and there were frequent moves of the battery in 1940 to cope with the blitz and defence of Birmingham later and also many exercises as part of an anti invasion plan.
    My apologies to Robert for deleting his email but I hope he sees this message and I can provide further details which might help him.
    Patrick.
     
  16. Patwalker

    Patwalker Junior Member

    As some of you may have noticed over the last few months I have been researching the 6 Regt and their sad demise during WW2. I have been down to the NA at Kew and looked through what few documents remain and trawled the internet sites.
    I have now just about finished what I can of their history but lack any pictures of any of the personnel from any battery or any locations they may have been in and been captured on film.
    I feel there must be many family members or ex gunners whose relatives were part of this illustrious Regt and I would be very pleased to see any pictures they may have.
    I can scan them and return with postage costs paid, or accept any scans via the internet through email.
    I can be contacted through this site via email or via Patwalker37srpen@aol.com and can then give you my postal address.
    Patrick
     
  17. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Pat
    Have you tried the IWM pic+film archive and Firepower Mus Woolwich. Posting on RA sites is also a good idea.
    Worth a shot.
    Rob
     

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