RE 193 Railway Operation Coy - Palestine

Hello there

This is my first post so I thought I'd better introduce myself and ask for a bit of help all in one go! My names Bill and I'm currently doing some family research.

I've come across an uncle that apparently served with a unit of the Royal Engineers. I've tried to find some details about this unit, but so far have had little success!

He served in Palestine - I'm guessing 1945-1948 in something called Royal Engineers 193 Railway Operation Company/squadron, apparently he was a Lance Corporal. They were based in a place called Assib?

My questions are these:

Was this unit formed specifically for Palestine or were they active during the 1939-45 war.

What exactly did this unit do - I'm guessing, obviously something to do with trains!!

Any assistance that you could offer would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Bill

 

hello Bill welcome to the forum
im sure forum members will be able to add info for you

have you requested his service records link below
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Service Records | Making a Request for Information held on the Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel

 

Hello there CL1, thanks for the welcome

I think that is going to have to be my next port of call in the ongoing search. I just wondered if any of the members knew anything about this particular unit, as its a complete mystery to me.

regarding the service records? Is it pretty straightforward and is there much in the way of paperwork and documentation that I would need to provide.

Thanks

Bill

 

hello Bill
have a look at the link below it gives more info
it is straight forward but I believe there is a bit of a backlog at the moment so you might have to wait a few months or more..

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Service Records | Making a Request for Information held on the Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel

keep us updated as to your progress.
regards
Clive

 

Old Bill
According to the Orbat (Order of Battle) RE there was no wartime 193 Railway Operating Company.
But it appears that in 1946 there was a company in Palestine with that unit number how or why it was formed is unclear.

I believe they would have operated the railway system doing the day to day running rather than construction, it could have included maintenance of signalling Etc.

I suggest Old Bill that you look up the unit war diary on the National Archieves and get a copy Drew is down at Kew next and if you find the file number he will for a modest amount copy it for you if you want (PM Drew5233)

Welecome to the forum

 

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Good luck on your research.

Regards
Tom

 

Gentlemen,

many, many thanks for all your help and advice. I'll keep digging and will of course keep you updated if and when I find anything.

You've all been very kind

best regards

Bill

 

Hi Bill, My Dad was in the
Royal Engineers 193rd Railway Operating Company. I have his service record throughout 1940/1946. I discovered 150 photos of him and his unit, trains and unknown other people on these. The 193rd was attached to the 8th Army and he must have traveled along North Africa and into Palestine. There are a lot of photos of derailed trains and a few tourist type photos of prominent buildings in Egypt etc.I have been trying to find out as much as I can about the content of the photos.

 

I have a recollection that the Palestine Arab Revolt pre-WW2 involved trains being derailed. There are some references here: Palestine Railways - Wikipedia In post-WW2 Palestine there was a Jewish insurgency and I note Wike refers to:

See: Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

Good luck.

 

In 1946/7 trains running from Egypt to Jerusalem were under British Army Command. Often some hapless 2nd Lt who was travelling there anyway was given the responsibility for the train he was on - a pretty thankless task which meant upsetting lots of travellers many who would be senior officers, taking all the blame if something happened and getting no credit if nothing did. George MacDonald Fraser wrote an account of such a journey based on his own experience.

 

I know I'm very late to the party, but if anyone is still interested, I would point the original poster to the book "Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War" by R. Tourret, wherein Chapter 3 succinctly presents military railway operations in the Middle East during WW2, including the role played by the 193rd Railway Operating Squadron (or Company) which moved between several locations and different assignments during its existence.

The place name mentioned in the original post should be Az-Zib, today known in Israel as Achziv and was a large loco shed and marshalling yard acting as the change-over point between the civilian- and military-operated parts of the military-built Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli Line. As its name suggests, the 193rd was charged with operating trains and the relevant infrastructure.

As head of The Israel Railway Museum I would be happy to try and answer any further railway-related query.

Other pertinent sources of information are:
The Military Railway Study Group
Harakevet Magazine

Chen Melling
Head of The Israel Railway Museum

 

I can usually identify most railway-related subjects in the Middle East quite easily, and would be happy to help, here or directly by email: chenm@rail.co.il

Chen Melling
Head of The Israel Railway Museum

 

I have a great uncle that served as an engine driver in 193 circa 1946-1948, departing with the British withdrawl. Just been going through and scanning in his old photos (examples attached), but haven't seen an online repository for this unit's photos. Canal Zoners is as close as I could find, but it serves a more broad base.

 

UH1NDRVR,

I am sure Chen Melling (Post 12) would be interested in the photos and will send him a Private Message (PM) alerrting him to your post as examples!

PM explained:

If you hover over the name of the member in their avatar it will show a new text box and within is the date of their last logged visit. Some members "flag" their interest in a thread, which means they get a system alert. Once you have posted five times - a measure to stop spam - you can send a private message (PM) to members using 'Start a private conversation' accessed via your avatar. Such messages depend on their email given at registration is still valid. You can receive and reply to a PM already.

 

Thanks for the photos UH1NDRVR and also thanks to David for drawing my attention.

Photos 01 and 12 show a Palestine Railways N Class locomotive, built by Nasmyth Wilson in the 1930s. The 11 locomotives of the class, numbered 40-50, were modern 0-6-0T shunting engines.

The one in photo 01 seems to carry the number 43 on its buffer beam. The built-up mountainside in the background of photo 01 identifies the location as Haifa, and it seems it was taken not far from the current location of The Israel Railway Museum.

Photo 11 shows a Stanier 8F locomotive, No. 396 (actually by then renumbered to 70396), of a series designed and originally built for the LMS Railways but adopted by the WD and built in large numbers for them. The locomotive shed in the background is probably the one built by the Army at Az-zib, as part of the Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli Railway. Below is a photo of a sister engine, No. 70386 at the same location around the same time.

 

Thanks. Here are a few more. #26 shows a view towards the docks. The white building with the short (water?) tower next to it seem to still be there. The building on the right in #27 across the street from the monument is also still there, albeit in a lesser state of repair. #30 shows "Lancers at Lydda". I have a few photos that show a large building labelled "Haifa Central" surrounded by barbed wire with tanks, half tracks and armored cars parked next to it and what appears to be soldiers on the roof. Looks to be a British marshalling point.

I'm uploading the photos into a OneDrive folder as I scan and clean them up a bit. If you want copies, might be the best way to get them to you enmass.

 

Hi Bill, welcome from Germany.
Assib may be spelled differently these days or if in Gaza, the town does not exist anymore.
Do we have members in Israel who might be able to help.
Stefan.

 

Here you go Stefan, and Chen, and UH1NDRVR.

"Az-zib" as once known. Once Palestine, now Israel.

"Achziv (Hebrew: אַכְזִיב ʾAḵzīḇ) or Az-Zeeb (Arabic: الزيب, romanized: Az-Zīb) is an ancient site on the Mediterranean coast of northern Israel, between the border with Lebanon and the city of Acre. It is located 13.5 kilometres (8.4 mi) north of Acre on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, within the municipal area of Nahariya. Today it is an Israeli national park."

Good luck with all your research folks.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Thanks Jim.
I am so happy that I visited Israel years ago and on driving around I might even been close to this park.
Good luck in your research Bill.
These things do take long sometimes. A bit of a marathon it could be, the last kilometer is extremely hard.
Giving up is no choice.
Stefan

 

Did a quick online search and found this reference on an archeology site: "kibbutz Gesher HaZiv in Israel, site of a former British Army camp in WW2 in what was then Mandate Palestine. The original community was known as Azzib to the British."

Attached are some photos (33-36) presumably of that camp. One (33) has the following written on the back: "Azzib Mt Shado 193 Rly Op Sqdn B.F.I.P. 1948". "Shado" is hard to make out. Might be "Shedo". Another (35) seems to have "Ezzir Rly Opt Sqdn Camp" written on the back, but it might be "Azzib". Several other also have "Azzib" written on the back, but some of them show rail tracks and an overhead look at Gesher HaZiv doesn't show rail tracks anywhere near it. In one of his posts about, Chen references locomotive sheds at Az-zib, so maybe there were once tracks leading to what is now Gesher HaZiv, but have been consumed over time. #37, also with Azzib" written on the back of the photo, is clearly on the coast, so my theory falls apart there!