Second attempt at a first post, and probably in the wrong sub-forum, but here goes... I found recently I have very little idea of which types of Light Reconnaissance Car and Armoured Car were deployed by particular units of the Reconnaissance Corps during 1941-43. There's a fairly long list of LRC types in service during this period, and the Recce Corps didn't begin to receive armoured cars until late 1942, so there's lots of room for variation. I know of the book 'Only the enemy in front', but don't have a copy. If anyone does, could they let me know whether this might answer the question? Thanks, Gary
Gary, Hello and welcome to the forum. If you can get your hands on the Osprey book, "The British Reconnaissance Corps in World war II by Richard Doherty, you will find a lot of information. The book can also be browsed on Amazon. Amazon.co.uk: Books: The British Reconnaissance Corps in World War II (Elite) It is softback and A5 size with 64 pages of interesting reading. Regards Tom
Hi Gary and welcome to the forum Allow me to get the pictures going 15th Recce Reg (You can just make out the lion) Cheers Andy
Andy, Gary is interested in the earlier models available. If I am not mistaken your photo is from 1944 or 1945. Regards Tom
Nice pic, but it is out of the timeframe as mentioned. In 21 Army Group the vehicle situation was clearer, with Humber LRCs accompanying Humber armoured cars, the latter with the 37-mm main gun, in early 1944. There was then a gradual replacement of the Humber armoured cars by Daimlers during the campaign, 15th being unusual in that they reported a mix of Humber and Daimler armoured cars by VE-Day. Back in 1941 though, Recce Bns and later Regts were only authorised LRCs, which encompassed the Morris and Humber types, and the Beaverette, which I don't believe made it overseas?! The Recce Regts that served under 8th Army didn't get much chance to shine; 50th Bn was lost very early and both 44th and 51st Regts were used out of role. I've never seen anything that indicated what types of LRC they took to the desert. In 1st Army, my feeling is Recce Regts used a mix of Humber LRCs and Humber armoured cars with the 15-mm main gun, but I've been wrong before. I'm not even certain if 56th Recce had armoured cars from the outset in North Africa, or whether they were still all LRC at that point. Gary
I think I posted some pic's on here of early Recce wagons in Africa...Can't find where they are though.
Welcome to the forum. From Only the Enemy in Front by Richard Docherty By April 1941, the War Diary of 4 Recce was noting deficiencies in equipment that were afflicting all battalions of the Corps: 4 Recce had only 44 Bren guns; two 2-inch mortars and one 3-inch, while only nine anti-tank rifles had been received. Worse still was the issue of vehicles: the battalion had only nine carriers and no recce cars nor any information about the type of cars to be issued. Of other vehicles, only 30 motorcycles had been received against an establishment of 71 and one car against an establishment of five. "Lack of fighting vehicles was a serious impediment to tactical training and the training of drivers."6 The first armoured reconnaissance car supplied to the Corps was an improvised vehicle based on a Humber car fitted with armour plating and equipped with a machine-gun. Such vehicles were called Beaverettes and it was with these unwieldy cars that the Corps started its training.Fortunately, by the time the Corps went into action the Beaverette was but a memory; it had served its purpose in providing a vehicle for training in the early months of 1941 although 4 Recce considered it "of little practical value" in that role although it might have been "of possible use against parachutists." Other stop-gap vehicles issued to the fledgling Corps included Standard 8s "with tin sides" and Ironsides, rudimentary armoured vehicles based on a Bedford 3-ton lorry chassis with an armoured box constructed from boiler-plating mounted on it. The Humber company also produced the replacement for the Beaverette and other interim vehicles in the shape of the Humber Light Reconnaissance Car (LRC) which had a crew of three and was fitted with a light machine-gun, a smoke discharger, two rifles and a No 19 radio set. Earlier versions were two-wheel drive but a four-wheel drive version was later developed. Weighing 3.6 tons, the Humber LRC had a maximum road speed of 61mph from a six-cylinder Humber petrol engine of 26.88 HP and a range of 175 miles from its 18-gallon fuel tank. As the war progressed the Humber LRC was to be supplemented with, or replaced by, a number of other vehicles, British and American, while heavy armoured cars were also to be introduced to the inventories of recce regiments. On 6 January 1942 six Humber Mark m LRCs with four-wheel drive were issued to 4 Recce, the first unit to receive any of these vehicles; they were described as a "considerable fillip to morale." The bulk of the vehicles used by the 56 Recce in the early stages of the war were British Humber light armoured cars. (Note: While the Humber Mk I-IV were officially "Light" Armoured Scout Cars, they were referred to as "Heavies" by Recce crews who were comparing them to the original LRC's). These cars also required a crew of three. They were 4 wheel drive, weighed 3 1/2 tons, and had a six cylinder engine. They were fast and maneuverable but were comparatively lightly armed with a 15mm BESA HMG and a .303 Bren Light Machine Gun. Cheers Paul
Back in 1941 though, Recce Bns and later Regts were only authorised LRCs, which encompassed the Morris and Humber types, and the Beaverette, which I don't believe made it overseas?! The Recce Regts that served under 8th Army didn't get much chance to shine; 50th Bn was lost very early and both 44th and 51st Regts were used out of role. I've never seen anything that indicated what types of LRC they took to the desert. In 1st Army, my feeling is Recce Regts used a mix of Humber LRCs and Humber armoured cars with the 15-mm main gun, but I've been wrong before. I'm not even certain if 56th Recce had armoured cars from the outset in North Africa, or whether they were still all LRC at that point. Gary Hi Gary, 51 Recce arrived in Egypt on 11.Aug.42 but did not receive their transport including their Humber LRCs until 6.Sept. The Humbers were found to be completely unsuitable for the desert conditions and apparently none saw service in the 2nd battle of Alamein - only their carriers were still serviceable by late October. The following excerpt is from 'A Short History Of The 51st (H) Reconnaissance Regiment (1941 - 1943) And It's Involvement In The Desert Campain' 1991 by Leslie Meek: Tom.
Thanks for the replies all, especially Paul and Tom. Right, so no specific mention of the Morris LRC (with its unique 3-seater sofa arrangment) for the Recce Regts in Only the Enemy...and once the interim vehicles produced post Dunkirk are eliminated that leaves just the Humber LRC. I know that existed in a number of variants, but all sharing a three-man crew and armed with a single Bren, plus a .55-inch atk rifle until around 1943. That does suggest a continuity of equipment for the Recce Regts in respect of LRCs from 1941-45. Still some possibility that Daimler armoured cars could have featured as well as the early Humber marks with the 15-mm Besa in North Africa. Armoured Car Regts in the theatre used quite a mix of types from what little digging I've done. Re the unlucky 51st Recce, there's mention in 'Monty's Highlanders' by Delaforce that they were reorganised into Carrier and Infantry elements (the latter probably the Assault Tps under a single HQ). They and 44th Recce both appear to have been used as extra minefield clearance units at Alamein, 8th Army having no use for them in the Recce role. The LRCs weren't suited to the terrain, and the Armd Car Regts pretty much dominated that area of operations in the desert. 44th avoided being broken up or re-tasked (joining 56th Division when it came from Palestine), but 51st converted to a Battalion of the HLI I understand (14th?). I'm not sure where they went after that. Thanks all, Gary
Gary, Do not overlook the Bren Carrier, which was widely used by the Reconnaissance Corps and may explain the lack of Armoured cars allocated early. Regards Tom
Don't worry Smudger, I never forget the Carrier, unsung hero of many roles and one constant of Recce Corps org! It was the LRCs and Armd cars I was looking at recently and coming up blank on specific early war types.
Gary, I believe it could just be a case of not enough to go around. The Osprey publication mentions the 15th (Scottish) Recce using improvised AFV's, these being based on a Bedford 30 cwt lorries. Slab plates providing the protection. Regards Tom
Right, so no specific mention of the Morris LRC (with its unique 3-seater sofa arrangment) for the Recce Regts in Only the Enemy...and once the interim vehicles produced post Dunkirk are eliminated that leaves just the Humber LRC. Morris LRC's were certainly used by some Recce Regiments, 43 Recce had at least one during the war. Not sure what you mean by sofa arrangement? All the seats in the Morris are seperate, especially for the turret as it's a lot higher up
Rob, The only evidence that we have so far found of a Morris LRC in 43 Recce was from an article written by Harry Ells for Autocar magazine. As yet I haven't either found photographic evidence or any veteran that can remember it. If it existed then it was probably in RHQ. Regards, Les.
Hi Les, I was told there's a reference to one in the war diary, I think it might have been a replacement vehicle to make up for a lost one (no doubt a Humber)
To try and help, I'll put some copies of 56 Recce War Diaries on here and those in the know about the vehicles and what they are, can analyse and post photos. I know nothing about any of these vehicles, so if the info is rubbish, please let me know.
Great stuff Ramacal. From the first picture; Ironsides - that's usually the name for the Humber light recce car Mk 1, but as it says 'Standard' that could be the Beaverette, built on the Standard car chassis The 15 cwt trucks 'from Dagenham' are no doubt the Fordson WOT2, built at Dagenham of course On the second picture, i'd love to know what the 'Malcolm Campbell' armoured cars are!
Here is a mention of an LRC in 43 Recce Diaries. 43rd Recce Regiment War Diaries and Part 1 Orders BY LAWRENCE POOLEY This is the original text from the 43rd Reconnaissance Regiment War Diary as it is stored at Public Record Office at Kew, Richmond. 1944 January Hartfield, Sussex OC Lt Col Lane-Fox 2i/c Major Kinnersley Training Div HQ "HOMEWOOD" Tenterden, Kent 326528 February Training Water Cans 4.5 gallon painted No.2 camouflage brown, water painted on both sides, surface under handles and indentations painted white. Leather Jerkins will not be worn for walking out. Sten slings will be attached behind the foresight. Dannert wire will be carried by all vehicles, either wrapped in hessian (training) or secured with wire. March Light respirators issued. A.F. B2606A Identity card with photograph. Divisional standing order re-states "Boots are to be Dubbined" not polished. RHQ Battlegroup for Exercise STENTOR Ser. Vehicles Crew 1 LRC, CO's Rover Signal Officer, D/Op & Dvr 2 4 x Motorcycles DR Sgt & 3 x Drs 3 Jeep Anti-tank Bty Cdr (Dixon) & D/Batman 4 Motorcycle Provo Sgt 5 CV I CO, IO, Tpr, D/Op & Dvr 6 CO's Car Dvr, Tpr Connelley & Tpr Knott 7 CV II 2i/c, Adj, D/Op & Dvr 8 Jeep (M5157340 Mortar Officer (Brickwood) & D/Batman 9 Jeep (Set) Sgt Couling, D/Op & Dvr 10 Cook's Truck L/Cpl Bridges, Dvr & Cook 11 LRC LO (2i/c HQ Sqn), D/Op & Dvr Cheers Paul
